5 ms·

Yes exactly and this is why I have a MacBook, which has a keyboard and a trackpad and a decent screen. I don’t want my phone to be a general purpose computer. N

Yes exactly and this is why I have a MacBook, which has a keyboard and a trackpad and a decent screen. I don’t want my phone to be a general purpose computer. Not everything has to be that.

teddyh 6y ago
I’ve got a policy: If something is a general-purpose computer for someone else, but not for me, that is not a device for me. iPhones fall squarely in that category: They’re general-purpose computers for Apple, but not for the ostensible “owners” of these devices. Of course (as I wrote here three years ago¹), a non-programmable dumb/feature phone without updateability would also be adequate for my personal needs for what I need a phone for. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15358342#15366260 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15358342#15366260
- tptacek 6y ago
  I don't understand the logic here. You seem to be saying that it's better to have a featurephone than a modern phone if you can't load arbitrary code on the modern phone, but that logic, applied broadly, would serve almost no consumers well.
  - teddyh 6y ago
    I said nothing of the kind. I expressed a personal policy and preference, and I did not mention “consumers”.
  - m4rtink 6y ago
    Actually, I can imagine a modern "dumpphone" being a preaty nice think - make it say in a classic candybar shape and make sure it has good time on battery & can be used as wifi hotspot/mobile modem over USB. Application could be very basic (calendar, address book, calculator, alarm, etc.) - by default. Or users could make their own simple apps - nothing fancy, Arduino like cooperative multitasking, simple screen drawing, maybe a few widget helpers. I can imagine this being a fun thing to use & play with. :)
    - c22 6y ago
      You want the Nokia 8110 "banana phone" [0], a re-release of the phone Neo uses in The Matrix. Unfortunately there's no US version :( [0] https://www.amazon.com/Nokia-8110-TA-1067-2-45-inches-Unlocked/dp/B07FSD86KD https://www.amazon.com/Nokia-8110-TA-1067-2-45-inches-Unlock...
      - dane-pgp 6y ago
        It's the best, beats the rest, cellular, modular, interactivodular.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
      So are you intentionally hinting at the Light Phone, or is it news to you that someone has implemented exactly what you're describing? :) (https://www.thelightphone.com/ https://www.thelightphone.com/)
      - m4rtink 6y ago
        First time seeing that, but it comes preatty close! Still, being able to write your own apps for it would be nice. Even if very low level APIs & you would have to handle distribution yourself if you wanted to share them would be fine. But I don't see any information about that after quickly checking their page. BTW, a simple mobile terminal with cellular connection that you can program could be preatty useful in comparison to hacking a regular Android phone to only do what you need could be useful as well. For stuff like single use online terminals to give to field crews.
ryandrake 6y ago
Yea, it seems like purely a philosophical goal for people anymore. Just because something has a CPU, that doesn’t make it a general purpose computer. There just doesn’t seem to be any practical benefit anymore. I remember when I was younger, and I felt this odd moral imperative to having root on any device I had that I knew ran an operating system of some sort. Once I succeeded, then... well, nothing. It was pointless. Oh, wow I got Linux running on my PlayStation 2! Root login, baby! Look, it’s X Windows!! I have harnessed the power of the machine and am finally that much closer to..... well, nothing a PC can’t already do better.
- alickz 6y ago
  Back when I had a jailbroken iPhone (4S I believe) there were many useful, or just cool, jailbreak tweaks. Notable ones I remember where: 1. SBSettings, basically control center before Apple added the control center. 2. Flux, before Apple added Night Mode (or whatever they call it) 3. Winterboard, for theming the phone in ways 4. Gameboy emulator, though now I think this can be done without jailbreak. 5. Unlocking the carrier. 6. File explorer I'm sure there was more too. For me jailbreaking is partly a philosophical goal, but also I just like seeing all the stuff people come up with when they aren't restrained by the walls of the garden. If you read above you'll see most of the good jailbreak tweaks were brought into stock iOS at some point, which is great too. Let jailbroken users/devs try new things and if they work well bring them in with some Apple polish.
m4rtink 6y ago
Well, on modern Android phones you can connect a keyboard and a mouse not to mention often a big screen. Making a smartphone that does not behave as a general purpose computer is stuping and not to mention dangerous (as the manufacturer can always use it as a general purpose computer for its own nefarious means).
- snazz 6y ago
  You can use a keyboard and mouse on recent iOS versions as well (and it works very comfortably on iPadOS). You can also connect an adapter to use a big screen. I disagree with your argument that smartphones should be general-purpose computers. I don't think that having a smartphone be a general-purpose computer provides a significantly improved amount of control for 99.9% of the population.
- spijdar 6y ago
  > as the manufacturer can always use it as a general purpose computer for its own nefarious means This is assuming the device is, in fact, a general purpose computer. This is true now basically all of the time, but it doesn't have to be. I can imagine as a thought experiment an ASIC or FPGA based phone that implements a very high level application processor, while what we normally call firmware, OS and libraries are implemented in "pure hardware". (I agree with your sentiment, but somewhat disagree with your apparent conclusion android phones are any better if you're worried about bad actors -- the baseband and DSP from Qualcomm are processors running code we can never touch underlying the entire hardware. Similarly, almost all other computer hardware have separate CPUs inside the main CPU where the mfc. runs their own secret code which cannot be tampered with or even directly seen sometimes)
  - m4rtink 6y ago
    Oh, no question about Android being more secure from bad actors - there are most likely multiple parties that could be problematic (Google, device manufacturer, baseband manufacturer, network operator, etc.) while with Apple its just a single such entity. What I meant is that on Android There is less being done to actively prevent their usage as a self hosting workstation (though some recent "security" changes communig from Google related to running code that does not come from an installed APK might be a reversal of that trend).
kinjba11 6y ago
Why do you need two devices? iPhone hardware is faster than many laptops. In 2020 I should be able to trivially attach a external monitor, keyboard, trackpad, etc. to my phone and compile code on iOS for iOS. The fact that I can't is nothing more than the current zeitgeist. A laptop at this point should just be a big battery/screen/trackpad I attach to my phone.
- fastball 6y ago
  People tried that I think and nobody really liked it. Can't remember who did it, but seemed like the consensus at the time was that all you end up with is the worst of both worlds. Hybrid devices only rarely end up successful it seems.
  - icelancer 6y ago
    Should just be able to virtualize Linux/Windows inside of it. Eventually phones will be more than powerful enough to do that and we'll hotdesk with dumb terminals + phones.
    - teddyh 6y ago
      Like this? https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-laptop-mode/ https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-laptop-mode/ https://puri.sm/posts/mobile-desktop-convergence/ https://puri.sm/posts/mobile-desktop-convergence/
  - com2kid 6y ago
    Motorola did it and Microsoft did it. I think Samsung may have also given it a go.
  - tim-- 6y ago
    Samsung still does it (Dex) https://www.samsung.com/us/explore/dex/ https://www.samsung.com/us/explore/dex/ It's actually really good. I can wirelessly turn my TV into a 4K Android tablet, and with a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse, it turns into a computer. Same with a USB cable plugged into my desk's monitor to HDMI. If I didn't require a computer for development, I would not buy computers any more.
xg15 6y ago
I get that being able to run arbitrary code on a device is often not that important in practice. How about being able to not run any code that you don't want your device to run? No DRM, no nag screens, no tracking, etc etc... A non-rooted phone very much is a general-purpose computer, just not for you.

Yes exactly and this is why I have a MacBook, which has a keyboard and a trackpad and a decent screen. I don’t want my phone to be a general purpose computer. Not everything has to be that.

teddyh 6y ago

I’ve got a policy: If something is a general-purpose computer for someone else, but not for me, that is not a device for me. iPhones fall squarely in that category: They’re general-purpose computers for Apple, but not for the ostensible “owners” of these devices. Of course (as I wrote here three years ago¹), a non-programmable dumb/feature phone without updateability would also be adequate for my personal needs for what I need a phone for. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15358342#15366260 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15358342#15366260

tptacek 6y ago
I don't understand the logic here. You seem to be saying that it's better to have a featurephone than a modern phone if you can't load arbitrary code on the modern phone, but that logic, applied broadly, would serve almost no consumers well.
- teddyh 6y ago
  I said nothing of the kind. I expressed a personal policy and preference, and I did not mention “consumers”.
- m4rtink 6y ago
  Actually, I can imagine a modern "dumpphone" being a preaty nice think - make it say in a classic candybar shape and make sure it has good time on battery & can be used as wifi hotspot/mobile modem over USB. Application could be very basic (calendar, address book, calculator, alarm, etc.) - by default. Or users could make their own simple apps - nothing fancy, Arduino like cooperative multitasking, simple screen drawing, maybe a few widget helpers. I can imagine this being a fun thing to use & play with. :)
  - c22 6y ago
    You want the Nokia 8110 "banana phone" [0], a re-release of the phone Neo uses in The Matrix. Unfortunately there's no US version :( [0] https://www.amazon.com/Nokia-8110-TA-1067-2-45-inches-Unlocked/dp/B07FSD86KD https://www.amazon.com/Nokia-8110-TA-1067-2-45-inches-Unlock...
    - dane-pgp 6y ago
      It's the best, beats the rest, cellular, modular, interactivodular.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
    So are you intentionally hinting at the Light Phone, or is it news to you that someone has implemented exactly what you're describing? :) (https://www.thelightphone.com/ https://www.thelightphone.com/)
    - m4rtink 6y ago
      First time seeing that, but it comes preatty close! Still, being able to write your own apps for it would be nice. Even if very low level APIs & you would have to handle distribution yourself if you wanted to share them would be fine. But I don't see any information about that after quickly checking their page. BTW, a simple mobile terminal with cellular connection that you can program could be preatty useful in comparison to hacking a regular Android phone to only do what you need could be useful as well. For stuff like single use online terminals to give to field crews.

ryandrake 6y ago

Yea, it seems like purely a philosophical goal for people anymore. Just because something has a CPU, that doesn’t make it a general purpose computer. There just doesn’t seem to be any practical benefit anymore. I remember when I was younger, and I felt this odd moral imperative to having root on any device I had that I knew ran an operating system of some sort. Once I succeeded, then... well, nothing. It was pointless. Oh, wow I got Linux running on my PlayStation 2! Root login, baby! Look, it’s X Windows!! I have harnessed the power of the machine and am finally that much closer to..... well, nothing a PC can’t already do better.

alickz 6y ago
Back when I had a jailbroken iPhone (4S I believe) there were many useful, or just cool, jailbreak tweaks. Notable ones I remember where: 1. SBSettings, basically control center before Apple added the control center. 2. Flux, before Apple added Night Mode (or whatever they call it) 3. Winterboard, for theming the phone in ways 4. Gameboy emulator, though now I think this can be done without jailbreak. 5. Unlocking the carrier. 6. File explorer I'm sure there was more too. For me jailbreaking is partly a philosophical goal, but also I just like seeing all the stuff people come up with when they aren't restrained by the walls of the garden. If you read above you'll see most of the good jailbreak tweaks were brought into stock iOS at some point, which is great too. Let jailbroken users/devs try new things and if they work well bring them in with some Apple polish.

m4rtink 6y ago

Well, on modern Android phones you can connect a keyboard and a mouse not to mention often a big screen. Making a smartphone that does not behave as a general purpose computer is stuping and not to mention dangerous (as the manufacturer can always use it as a general purpose computer for its own nefarious means).

snazz 6y ago
You can use a keyboard and mouse on recent iOS versions as well (and it works very comfortably on iPadOS). You can also connect an adapter to use a big screen. I disagree with your argument that smartphones should be general-purpose computers. I don't think that having a smartphone be a general-purpose computer provides a significantly improved amount of control for 99.9% of the population.
spijdar 6y ago
> as the manufacturer can always use it as a general purpose computer for its own nefarious means This is assuming the device is, in fact, a general purpose computer. This is true now basically all of the time, but it doesn't have to be. I can imagine as a thought experiment an ASIC or FPGA based phone that implements a very high level application processor, while what we normally call firmware, OS and libraries are implemented in "pure hardware". (I agree with your sentiment, but somewhat disagree with your apparent conclusion android phones are any better if you're worried about bad actors -- the baseband and DSP from Qualcomm are processors running code we can never touch underlying the entire hardware. Similarly, almost all other computer hardware have separate CPUs inside the main CPU where the mfc. runs their own secret code which cannot be tampered with or even directly seen sometimes)
- m4rtink 6y ago
  Oh, no question about Android being more secure from bad actors - there are most likely multiple parties that could be problematic (Google, device manufacturer, baseband manufacturer, network operator, etc.) while with Apple its just a single such entity. What I meant is that on Android There is less being done to actively prevent their usage as a self hosting workstation (though some recent "security" changes communig from Google related to running code that does not come from an installed APK might be a reversal of that trend).

kinjba11 6y ago

Why do you need two devices? iPhone hardware is faster than many laptops. In 2020 I should be able to trivially attach a external monitor, keyboard, trackpad, etc. to my phone and compile code on iOS for iOS. The fact that I can't is nothing more than the current zeitgeist. A laptop at this point should just be a big battery/screen/trackpad I attach to my phone.

fastball 6y ago
People tried that I think and nobody really liked it. Can't remember who did it, but seemed like the consensus at the time was that all you end up with is the worst of both worlds. Hybrid devices only rarely end up successful it seems.
- icelancer 6y ago
  Should just be able to virtualize Linux/Windows inside of it. Eventually phones will be more than powerful enough to do that and we'll hotdesk with dumb terminals + phones.
  - teddyh 6y ago
    Like this? https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-laptop-mode/ https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-laptop-mode/ https://puri.sm/posts/mobile-desktop-convergence/ https://puri.sm/posts/mobile-desktop-convergence/
- com2kid 6y ago
  Motorola did it and Microsoft did it. I think Samsung may have also given it a go.
- tim-- 6y ago
  Samsung still does it (Dex) https://www.samsung.com/us/explore/dex/ https://www.samsung.com/us/explore/dex/ It's actually really good. I can wirelessly turn my TV into a 4K Android tablet, and with a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse, it turns into a computer. Same with a USB cable plugged into my desk's monitor to HDMI. If I didn't require a computer for development, I would not buy computers any more.

xg15 6y ago

I get that being able to run arbitrary code on a device is often not that important in practice. How about being able to not run any code that you don't want your device to run? No DRM, no nag screens, no tracking, etc etc... A non-rooted phone very much is a general-purpose computer, just not for you.