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The fix for this is to just never ever connect your TV to the internet. Devices like the chromecast and game consoles generally have better app support and usab
by p1necone 6y ago
The fix for this is to just never ever connect your TV to the internet. Devices like the chromecast and game consoles generally have better app support and usability than most smart tvs anyway.
It doesn't make sense to tie the lifespan of a display to the lifespan of software support when the computing hardware is so ubiquitous outside of the TV anyway.
- gowld 6y agoThis won't stop Whispernet-style LTE communications.
- jsizzle 6y agoTrue but they won’t have lateral access to your local network nor would you be entering credentials to online services.
- paranoidrobot 6y agoI would be surprised if consumer home electronics like this would be shipped with anything other than bluetooth/wifi radios. While the advertising / data sharing revenue is valuable to them, the vast majority of those are going into homes where they're going to be internet connected already. The cost of a modem + service fees for it wouldn't be worth it for most of them. Amazon is starting to ship their Sidewalk protocol[1] which will be embedded into a bunch of their devices - but that seems to be mainly for low-power/remote devices to connect back to a Sidewalk access point, rather than to provide an alternative data-path for (say) customer metrics. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/ https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/
- daniellarusso 6y agoOne of the driving forces is for every device to have a 5G connection, no wifi needed. Everything will have an IPv6 address soon. I do not agree with any of that, though.
- paranoidrobot 6y agoI'm thinking about it from a BOM cost, though. Consider the beancounters at the manufacturer: We are shipping a SmartTV, we expect our users to therefore have internet access, because the device is mostly non-working without it. Why would we then include: a cellular radio AND make us pay for a cellular data service on an ongoing basis? Is the data from some small fraction of users who don't already have wifi valuable enough to pay off the hardware and service costs in every other TV? Seems unlikely.
- daniellarusso 6y agoI bought the very first Kindle and it came with free Sprint cellular data service. Look at how much an ESP32 can do and what it costs. At scale, the cost of the additional electronics is negligible, especially if it is being subsidized. Nobody is making you pay for service. It will simply send back fingerprints of your screen image and usage data, and can probably load ads, as well.
- paranoidrobot 6y agoKindles with Whispersync over 2G was subsidised directly by you buying books. You'll note though that getting a Kindle with 3G nowdays means paying for the more expensive models - Paperwhite or Oasis. > Nobody is making you pay for service I think you missed what I said. I was talking from the perspective of a manufacturer. The cost of buying and integration the new hardware, and also an ongoing monthly sim cost for the benefit of getting analytics and ads from a tiny fraction of your userbase that does NOT already have their TV hooked up to wifi is significant, and I doubt it comes close to the added revenue you might get from that fraction of users. That also assumes that those who don't have their Smart TV hooked up to wifi are going to be in cellular range.
- numpad0 6y agoLTE-M1 chips are getting closer to that region. Besides, cars have had it for decades, under “telematics” terminology. Intention is Google Analytics for physical cars, but they OTA, connects to internal CAN bus, technologically not infeasible to cause unintended accelerated drive into walls if taken, and it’s completely on the house, free of any payment.
- wil421 6y agoI call BS on your suggestion. Everyone always says something like this or Ethernet over HDMI stealing a connection. Prove it with something real or don’t comment.
- cyberlurker 6y agoHe’s just suggesting it’s possible. It will happen eventually with the right incentive. There were already Samsung TVs that connected to open WiFi networks a few years back.
- boomboomsubban 6y agoAmazon Kindles come with LTE's allowing them to access Amazon's 3G network named "Whispernet." They advertise(d) this feature.
- Held_der_Arbeit 6y agoWouldn't just identifying the chips and drilling through them be more effective?
- foresto 6y agoOr don't reward spyware makers by purchasing appliances that can phone home. Bonus: This way, you don't have to worry about open wifi networks.
- undersuit 6y ago>Bonus: This way, you don't have to worry about open wifi networks. I live near a BK, my TV could dl some auto auth for the wifi and just upload my habits... if it wasn't specifically chosen to reduce that probability.
- nordsieck 6y ago> my TV could dl some auto auth for the wifi How is it possible that your TV could automatically log into your wifi?
- jghn 6y agoI believe they’re suggesting there is a public WiFi network in range of their home. Where I live I can see a few dozen networks active. At any one time at least a few are public.
- btgeekboy 6y agoWhen purchasing a TV, this is getting more and more difficult. There’s few dumb displays out there these days.
- ssss11 6y agoI recently bought a TV and couldn’t find any dumb ones in the local big brand stores.
- bluGill 6y agoThey exist, but not at the big stores. You need to find one targeted at a conference room, or factory. The factory is probably better because safety information is displayed on them so people can die if it doesn't work for some reason.
- quickthrowman 6y agoWhy would you connect a Chromecast to the internet but not your TV? They're equally as bad, as they both collect your data/viewing habits to sell to other people, same with Roku. Don't connect your TV to the internet, buy an Apple TV.
- megablast 6y agoLuckily the out stickers at the store to tell you which ones collect data.
- progman32 6y agoOr use an open source system like Kodi.
- dannyw 6y agoI trust Google’s security more than an OEM focusing on cost minimalisation. Giving google my viewing habits is bad, but giving Hisense + DodgyAdBroker.biz + CCP/PLA is even worse.
- xalava 6y agoI'm not sure how buying a device connected to the internet, fully controlled by the company, that also collects data and sell ads is an improvement.
- JadeNB 6y ago> The fix for this is to just never ever connect your TV to the internet. My understanding is that lots of them aggressively sniff and try to hop on any unsecured network that they can find.
- ffpip 6y agoTV's and smart speakers connect to any open network. Alexa connected to my neighbour's wifi network.
- Silhouette 6y agoAlexa connected to my neighbour's wifi network. Is that legal where you are, assuming your neighbour has not granted permission to do it?
- ffpip 6y agoI don't know . But I've unplugged the Alexa Echo and put it inside my cupboard long ago.
- numpad0 6y agoDepends, and either way you’re being held responsible for the manufacturer’s decision.
- Reelin 6y agoIn the US I'm pretty sure it's legal at the federal level because the network is actively advertising itself by broadcasting the SSID and no user name or password is required when connecting. AFAIK, violating the CFAA would involve actively circumventing a mechanism intended to restrict access.
- skinny_p 6y agoThe only way to stop wifi on my Samsung TV was to plug in ethernet and block all traffic from it on my firewall. Extremely annoying that there is no setting to disable it.
- lifeisstillgood 6y agoThat's not a fix. This is a field that cries out "decent regulation". Terrible IoT security? Please see massive fines, Senators on TV claiming national security at risk, never allow that brand to be sold "on our soil" again. I know there is no obvious technical framework that can be applied as " best practise", that IoT is a horrible wild west and governments choosing winners will lead down sub optimal paths but it's hard to see a real alternative fix.
- dbtc 6y agoMaybe the potential regulators are also enjoying the free surveillance infrastructure
- nyokodo 6y agoThis is an extremely difficult problem. The proximate problem is that there isn't liability for industry when there should be. The proximate fix is adding liability into the equation one way or another. Using regulation may work, it theoretically ought to but Regulators tend to get captured by industry. Another way is to open the issue up to civil liability/class action lawsuits which requires a cooperating political and legal class who also tend to get captured by industry. The only way to overcome that is for the population to make it politically untenable to kowtow to industry. However, the population isn't educated on this and the political class which controls education for most people is unlikely going to push for it. Even if they were educated because the costs are diffuse and the interests are concentrated the population is unlikely going to feel the urgency to make this a political priority and the special interests certainly won't. Politically speaking the priorities of the Hacker News crowd amounts to very little. I would love to hear ideas about how to overcome these problems.
- tim333 6y agoThe EU which is a bit more pro regulating stuff is having a go eg: >The European Telecommunications Standards Institute (ETSI) has released what it calls a globally applicable standard for cybersecurity in the Internet of Things (IoT). The new specification, TS 103645, seeks to establish a security baseline for internet-connected consumer products and provide a basis for future IoT certification schemes. https://futureiot.tech/europe-gets-first-global-consumer-iot-security-standard/ https://futureiot.tech/europe-gets-first-global-consumer-iot... Maybe if that works other places will follow.
- jbay808 6y ago> The fix for this is to just never ever connect your TV to the internet. This conversation happens on HN every week, and each time, commenters point out the numerous flaws in this plan: Manufacturer requiring a firmware update or internet connection for the TV to work, quietly connecting to internet over HDMI, connecting automatically to neighbour's unsecured wifi, shipping with an internal cell modem, and many other methods that might be around the corner as privacy norms drift and certain technologies become cheaper.
- m463 6y agoThe one I worry about is 5G. p2p to a nearby 5G device that gets you out.
- FerretFred 6y agoAdd IPV6 to this scenario and it allows for incredibly fine-grained device identification and possibly/probably location. I can really imagine data-gatherers/advertisers going crazy for that.
- devdas 6y agoOr don't have a TV.