6 ms·

Utah’s Economic Exceptionalism

33 points by flummox 6y ago

alex_young 6y ago
> Importantly, Utah’s success also shows up in health data. Utah’s cumulative case fatality rate—arguably the most important measure of pandemic success—measures 0.63 percent (compared to the national rate of 2.87 percent) and ranks lowest in the nation (as of this writing in October 2020). What in the world is this saying? That somehow Utahns are less likely to die once they have contracted the virus and that this has something to do with their economic prowess? Utah currently has a raging pandemic with a test positivity rate of 22% and an ever growing 2000+ people a day being picked up by testing. ICU and hospitalization rates are skyrocketing: https://cv19.report/UT https://cv19.report/UT Utah even sent out a text message to all residents warning them about the problem: https://coronavirus.utah.gov/utah-will-deploy-a-single-wireless-emergency-alert-statewide-due-to-rising-case-counts/ https://coronavirus.utah.gov/utah-will-deploy-a-single-wirel... This doesn’t look like much to brag about.
- howlgarnish 6y ago
  Fatality rates go down when people are tested early and hospitalized early. It seems quite plausible that income equality encourages both, since if you're poor and/or uninsured, going to the hospital or even the doctor is an absolute last resort.
- frostburg 6y ago
  Apparently the average age in Utah is 30, while nationally it's 38 (I assume due to prolific Mormon families?); this probably helps.
  - protomyth 6y ago
    Probably true as far as Utah, but a bad assumption to make elsewhere. A high death rate will make that stat true also.
- zwily 6y ago
  I don’t see a date on the article - maybe it was written before Utah got into its latest surge in cases.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  > Utah currently has a raging pandemic with a test positivity rate of 22% That's awesome, because herd immunity is 40% - 60%. So half way there. > This doesn’t look like much to brag about. You have no clue what you're talking about. Corona is a highly-contagious disease that is not preventable. There's a mass delusion in the US regarding fixation on various corona statistics, illustrated by your ignorant comment. We're all getting corona.
roenxi 6y ago
> Although few might expect a consistently Republican, low-tax state like Utah to lead the way in [income homogeneity]... One article isn't a showstopper, but I really wish this didn't surprise people so much. Taxes are taking away people's surplus (I've often heard 'they don't need the money' come up in arguments about taxes, for example) and invest it in government. That means that if the government fails to do something it is game over. The people have had the resources they would use to deal with it diverted. Low tax scenarios are much more fault tolerant. High taxes won't necessarily promote equality or great outcomes.
- postingpals 6y ago
  If there is a distrust in government misusing taxes, i wonder why the solution is to have less taxes, as opposed to fixing the government? I'm not being snarky I'm just genuinely curious why that is the knee jerk reaction.
  - zepto 6y ago
    Fixing the government isn’t a ‘solution’. It’s a generally unsolved problem.
    - MagnumOpus 6y ago
      It's a problem that is solved much better in many other similarly-wealthy countries (see Norway, Switzerland) or pretty much all the other first world countries. It does not have to be perfect, it only has to be better.
      - Buttons840 6y ago
        It's a good answer to the question though. The comment isn't necessarily in support of low taxes, but you have to admit "did I pay less tax?" is much easier to answer than "is the government functioning well?"
      - ericmay 6y ago
        Most of those countries have very homogenous populations. You also don’t hear about the bad stuff because unliked the United States they don’t have their dirty laundry being broadcast across every available medium 24/7/365.
hackeraccount 6y ago
Governmental policy is less important then everyone thinks.
jansan 6y ago
You can say about the Mormon religion whatever you want, but they are fascinating people, and at least from an outsider's point of view their society seems to work pretty well. Living in Europe I have not met many people from Utah in my life, but those young Mormon missionaries that try to talk to you on the street always seem to be very well mannered, friendly people. If they didn't have that strange religion I could actually imagine becoming a mormon :)
- TulliusCicero 6y ago
  Speaking as an exmo: you're correct, but also keep in mind that hiding the hurt and putting on a good face are also part of the religion. There's a reason why the cosmetic surgery billboard ads in Utah are omnipresent, and why anti-depressant usage is so high. There are absolutely some positive things about the faith, but the darker aspects are not as easily visible.
  - mc32 6y ago
    You could say the exact same thing regarding Los Angeles Ca.
    - vmception 6y ago
      Society is scratching the surface on toxic power dynamics. Right now we're talking about Mormons.
    - bognition 6y ago
      Sure but the city of Los Angeles isn't a cult. You're free to criticize the leadership of the city, you're free to move to another city and come back and visit your friends, you're free to think whatever you want.
  - BellLabradors 6y ago
    This doesn't negate your point, but part of the reason for higher anti-depressant usage is that they are less effective at altitude[0]. [0]https://unews.utah.edu/common-antidepressents-are-less-effective-at-high-altitudes-rodent-study-suggests/ https://unews.utah.edu/common-antidepressents-are-less-effec...
throwupinair 6y ago
Homogeneous. High trust. Purpose and meaning from religion. Conservative family centric values. This is not surprising at all. I wish more Americans had this, I wish I did.
- aiscapehumanity 6y ago
  Cope
- MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
  Agree, this should surprise no one. I wish we had a Utah I could move to.
- bognition 6y ago
  The purpose and meaning only work if you're bought in 100%. The religion is very intolerant of difference of thought. I spent years in it and was never happy.
- paulryanrogers 6y ago
  > Purpose and meaning from religion. Having been raised in it you're not missing much. And the baggage it comes with far outweighs any benefit.
recursivedoubts 6y ago
Unity and virtue appear to help, in terms of equity.
aiscapehumanity 6y ago
Utah economics are uniquely tied to mormons. Not sure if that's good or bad but just the fact.
brandall10 6y ago
I spent a year at a startup that had Utah roots (half the employees came from BYU). The CEO already had an 8 figure exit from a prior company he co-founded. It was a unique pleasure working there... many small companies tout this, but it really did feel like an extended family. Such an aura of positivity and comraderie really helped morale in the face of a handful of make or break issues we faced during my time. And despite the obvious roots of the company, not a whiff of anything religious or political was mentioned or hinted at, though people’s personal lives were regularly discussed and shared.
specialist 6y ago
I like this descriptive first hand account of policy work in Utah. Now please explain how to replicate it. SLC's strategy for homelessness is audacious and progressive. Leftists like me sat up and took note. Why can't we do the same in our own areas?! Utah reminds me of the Nordic countries, specifically Finland. High homogeneity allows those societies to more easily find consensus, break out of dogmatic strategies that no longer work. One data point about homogeneity (no cite, sorry) is a study of conservative support for raising taxes. Conservatives in more homogenous areas happily raise their own taxes, at about the same rate as majority liberal areas. FWIW, Some of Utah's approach to social problems is my kind of conservativism. I grew up in the church. We did the food banks, adopting refugee families, missionary works (rites of passage). Not knowing any better, I thought this was the norm, and that I was a conservative. While I'm not a big fan of Mormonism (or religion in general), I love that society's commitment to mutual aide. -- Meta: I became interested in American Affairs when Ezra Klein interviewed Julius Krein. https://www.vox.com/21528267/the-ezra-klein-show-trumpism-donald-trump-joe-biden-2020 https://www.vox.com/21528267/the-ezra-klein-show-trumpism-do... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Affairs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Affairs I love that the next generation of thinkers are reexamining big ideas with fresh eyes, that they're ignoring the framing and battle lines drawn up by Boomers and Gen X'ers (like me). In my own activism and political participation, I've observed that Millennials (aka Gen Y?) are more interested in getting things done. Much to the consternation to most of us blue hairs. But I love it.

33 points by flummox 6y ago

> Importantly, Utah’s success also shows up in health data. Utah’s cumulative case fatality rate—arguably the most important measure of pandemic success—measures 0.63 percent (compared to the national rate of 2.87 percent) and ranks lowest in the nation (as of this writing in October 2020). What in the world is this saying? That somehow Utahns are less likely to die once they have contracted the virus and that this has something to do with their economic prowess? Utah currently has a raging pandemic with a test positivity rate of 22% and an ever growing 2000+ people a day being picked up by testing. ICU and hospitalization rates are skyrocketing: https://cv19.report/UT https://cv19.report/UT Utah even sent out a text message to all residents warning them about the problem: https://coronavirus.utah.gov/utah-will-deploy-a-single-wireless-emergency-alert-statewide-due-to-rising-case-counts/ https://coronavirus.utah.gov/utah-will-deploy-a-single-wirel... This doesn’t look like much to brag about.

howlgarnish 6y ago
Fatality rates go down when people are tested early and hospitalized early. It seems quite plausible that income equality encourages both, since if you're poor and/or uninsured, going to the hospital or even the doctor is an absolute last resort.
frostburg 6y ago
Apparently the average age in Utah is 30, while nationally it's 38 (I assume due to prolific Mormon families?); this probably helps.
- protomyth 6y ago
  Probably true as far as Utah, but a bad assumption to make elsewhere. A high death rate will make that stat true also.
zwily 6y ago
I don’t see a date on the article - maybe it was written before Utah got into its latest surge in cases.
redis_mlc 6y ago
> Utah currently has a raging pandemic with a test positivity rate of 22% That's awesome, because herd immunity is 40% - 60%. So half way there. > This doesn’t look like much to brag about. You have no clue what you're talking about. Corona is a highly-contagious disease that is not preventable. There's a mass delusion in the US regarding fixation on various corona statistics, illustrated by your ignorant comment. We're all getting corona.

roenxi 6y ago

> Although few might expect a consistently Republican, low-tax state like Utah to lead the way in [income homogeneity]... One article isn't a showstopper, but I really wish this didn't surprise people so much. Taxes are taking away people's surplus (I've often heard 'they don't need the money' come up in arguments about taxes, for example) and invest it in government. That means that if the government fails to do something it is game over. The people have had the resources they would use to deal with it diverted. Low tax scenarios are much more fault tolerant. High taxes won't necessarily promote equality or great outcomes.

postingpals 6y ago
If there is a distrust in government misusing taxes, i wonder why the solution is to have less taxes, as opposed to fixing the government? I'm not being snarky I'm just genuinely curious why that is the knee jerk reaction.
- zepto 6y ago
  Fixing the government isn’t a ‘solution’. It’s a generally unsolved problem.
  - MagnumOpus 6y ago
    It's a problem that is solved much better in many other similarly-wealthy countries (see Norway, Switzerland) or pretty much all the other first world countries. It does not have to be perfect, it only has to be better.
    - Buttons840 6y ago
      It's a good answer to the question though. The comment isn't necessarily in support of low taxes, but you have to admit "did I pay less tax?" is much easier to answer than "is the government functioning well?"
    - ericmay 6y ago
      Most of those countries have very homogenous populations. You also don’t hear about the bad stuff because unliked the United States they don’t have their dirty laundry being broadcast across every available medium 24/7/365.

hackeraccount 6y ago

Governmental policy is less important then everyone thinks.

jansan 6y ago

You can say about the Mormon religion whatever you want, but they are fascinating people, and at least from an outsider's point of view their society seems to work pretty well. Living in Europe I have not met many people from Utah in my life, but those young Mormon missionaries that try to talk to you on the street always seem to be very well mannered, friendly people. If they didn't have that strange religion I could actually imagine becoming a mormon :)

TulliusCicero 6y ago
Speaking as an exmo: you're correct, but also keep in mind that hiding the hurt and putting on a good face are also part of the religion. There's a reason why the cosmetic surgery billboard ads in Utah are omnipresent, and why anti-depressant usage is so high. There are absolutely some positive things about the faith, but the darker aspects are not as easily visible.
- mc32 6y ago
  You could say the exact same thing regarding Los Angeles Ca.
  - vmception 6y ago
    Society is scratching the surface on toxic power dynamics. Right now we're talking about Mormons.
  - bognition 6y ago
    Sure but the city of Los Angeles isn't a cult. You're free to criticize the leadership of the city, you're free to move to another city and come back and visit your friends, you're free to think whatever you want.
- BellLabradors 6y ago
  This doesn't negate your point, but part of the reason for higher anti-depressant usage is that they are less effective at altitude[0]. [0]https://unews.utah.edu/common-antidepressents-are-less-effective-at-high-altitudes-rodent-study-suggests/ https://unews.utah.edu/common-antidepressents-are-less-effec...

throwupinair 6y ago

Homogeneous. High trust. Purpose and meaning from religion. Conservative family centric values. This is not surprising at all. I wish more Americans had this, I wish I did.

aiscapehumanity 6y ago
Cope
MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
Agree, this should surprise no one. I wish we had a Utah I could move to.
bognition 6y ago
The purpose and meaning only work if you're bought in 100%. The religion is very intolerant of difference of thought. I spent years in it and was never happy.
paulryanrogers 6y ago
> Purpose and meaning from religion. Having been raised in it you're not missing much. And the baggage it comes with far outweighs any benefit.

recursivedoubts 6y ago

Unity and virtue appear to help, in terms of equity.

aiscapehumanity 6y ago

Utah economics are uniquely tied to mormons. Not sure if that's good or bad but just the fact.

brandall10 6y ago

I spent a year at a startup that had Utah roots (half the employees came from BYU). The CEO already had an 8 figure exit from a prior company he co-founded. It was a unique pleasure working there... many small companies tout this, but it really did feel like an extended family. Such an aura of positivity and comraderie really helped morale in the face of a handful of make or break issues we faced during my time. And despite the obvious roots of the company, not a whiff of anything religious or political was mentioned or hinted at, though people’s personal lives were regularly discussed and shared.

specialist 6y ago

I like this descriptive first hand account of policy work in Utah. Now please explain how to replicate it. SLC's strategy for homelessness is audacious and progressive. Leftists like me sat up and took note. Why can't we do the same in our own areas?! Utah reminds me of the Nordic countries, specifically Finland. High homogeneity allows those societies to more easily find consensus, break out of dogmatic strategies that no longer work. One data point about homogeneity (no cite, sorry) is a study of conservative support for raising taxes. Conservatives in more homogenous areas happily raise their own taxes, at about the same rate as majority liberal areas. FWIW, Some of Utah's approach to social problems is my kind of conservativism. I grew up in the church. We did the food banks, adopting refugee families, missionary works (rites of passage). Not knowing any better, I thought this was the norm, and that I was a conservative. While I'm not a big fan of Mormonism (or religion in general), I love that society's commitment to mutual aide. -- Meta: I became interested in American Affairs when Ezra Klein interviewed Julius Krein. https://www.vox.com/21528267/the-ezra-klein-show-trumpism-donald-trump-joe-biden-2020 https://www.vox.com/21528267/the-ezra-klein-show-trumpism-do... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Affairs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Affairs I love that the next generation of thinkers are reexamining big ideas with fresh eyes, that they're ignoring the framing and battle lines drawn up by Boomers and Gen X'ers (like me). In my own activism and political participation, I've observed that Millennials (aka Gen Y?) are more interested in getting things done. Much to the consternation to most of us blue hairs. But I love it.