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So measured wage "theft" comes out to $3 per person per year. But it's a contract violation, not violence, so a monetary comparison is completely sociopathic.

So measured wage "theft" comes out to $3 per person per year. But it's a contract violation, not violence, so a monetary comparison is completely sociopathic. Also, this headline excludes transfer payments as a form of theft.

triceratops 6y ago
> But it's a contract violation, not violence, so a monetary comparison is completely sociopathic. Theft in general doesn't involve violence or the threat of violence. You're thinking of robbery. One merely has to illegally deprive someone of something they legally own in order to commit theft. A pickpocketing is a theft. A mugging is a robbery. Wage theft is an entirely appropriate name. You could also call it "wage misappropriation" or "wage embezzlement" (though "embezzlement" generally applies to company property) if you want to make it sound classier :-P
- SamReidHughes 6y ago
  They are literally comparing against robbery. Burglary is violence too. So is pickpocketing.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    > Burglary is violence too. So is pickpocketing. They literally are not. If I have my pocket picked or my house burgled when I'm out, I may not find out until later. There was no violence or threat of violence employed against my person. Robbery and theft are legally defined as separate crimes. The former is treated far more harshly than the latter.
    - SamReidHughes 6y ago
      If it takes violence to protect yourself from that trespass, then instigating that is an act of violence.
      - triceratops 6y ago
        Feel free to put your own spin on the law (not to mention, the English language) but the courts don't see it that way.
        SamReidHughes 6y ago
        Yes they do. If somebody’s got their hand in your pocket, you can forcibly remove it. If they’re burgling your house, you’ve got the right to shoot them dead.
        triceratops 6y ago
        > If somebody’s got their hand in your pocket, you can forcibly remove it. It's still pickpocketing, which is theft. Unless they employ force against you in turn, or threaten you, to stop you from removing their hand. That makes it robbery. > If they’re burgling your house, you’ve got the right to shoot them dead. It's still burglary, which is theft. Unless they also employ violence against you, or threaten violence against you, in the course of committing the burglary. That makes it robbery. This isn't my opinion, so there's no use arguing with me. You're arguing against the law and the English language.
        SamReidHughes 6y ago
        In most of America you can shoot people who are burglarizing in your house. It's called the castle doctrine. In Texas you can shoot them as they're running off with your property, if it's after dark.
        triceratops 6y ago
        That's great and all but has no bearing on whether the intruder is a thief or a robber. Even in Texas. They have to offer violence or threaten it to be considered a robber. Otherwise they're a trespasser or thief. If you don't like this, take it up with the dictionary. Sorry for the bluntness but this is getting a bit ridiculous.
    - jacinabox 6y ago
      We need to enforce the laws as they are written and right now that means prosecuting time theft by employees a criminal offense. Law and economics tells us that the degree of wrong done by inconveniencing someone is in proportion to the worth of that persons time. If a person of importance to society has a suit against them it must be speedily dismissed.
  - t-writescode 6y ago
    I suspect you're playing with terms from an academic sense here and we're speaking in a different sense, so you're talking past each other.
ummonk 6y ago
How do you figure? ~50 billion is something like $300 per worker.
- SamReidHughes 6y ago
  The article says $933 million.
  - jakelazaroff 6y ago
    That is the amount recovered: > By contrast, the total amount recovered for the victims of wage theft who retained private lawyers or complained to federal or state agencies was at least $933 million in 2012. This is almost three times greater than all the money stolen in robberies that year. Further, the nearly $1 billion successfully reclaimed by workers is only the tip of the wage-theft iceberg, since most victims never sue and never complain to the government.
  - dredmorbius 6y ago
    That's the low estimate, based on recovered losses: But we do know that the total amount of money recovered for the victims of wage theft who retained private lawyers or complained to federal or state agencies was at least $933 million—almost three times greater than all the money stolen in robberies that year. https://www.epi.org/publication/epidemic-wage-theft-costing-workers-hundreds/ https://www.epi.org/publication/epidemic-wage-theft-costing-... High is $50 billion. 2019 workforce was 164 million. -> $305/worker. https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/civilian-labor-force-summary.htm https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/civilian-labor-force-summary....
    - SamReidHughes 6y ago
      That’s what I said in my comment. 50 billion is a made up number. The fact is, this isn’t really theft. It’s a change in wages that has occurred after you switched jobs, only instead of saying “actually we’re going to pay you $X, now that you’ve started,” they sneak in lower wages through other means. That’s not a good thing, but it’s hardball negotiation, not theft.
content_sesh 6y ago
Monetary impact is serving as a proxy and metric for the scope of the problem. As others have pointed out, not all burglary and larceny is necessarily violent. But you're also missing the point that wage theft is not always a dispassionate contract dispute between equal parties. Especially for those most vulnerable (minimum wage workers, people with medical conditions, people with dependents, the food and housing insecure) there is a massive level of coercion going on as well. These individuals often cannot afford to risk a legal fight to assert their claims to what they're fairly owed. I have friends who knew their employer was stealing from them and had to forgo things like medications because they couldn't make ends meet that month. Friends in the restaurant industry who've had to skips meals and go hungry while their manager skimmed from the tip pool. It may not meet the Oxford English Dictionary definition of "violence" but it sure seemed like violence to me.

triceratops 6y ago

> But it's a contract violation, not violence, so a monetary comparison is completely sociopathic. Theft in general doesn't involve violence or the threat of violence. You're thinking of robbery. One merely has to illegally deprive someone of something they legally own in order to commit theft. A pickpocketing is a theft. A mugging is a robbery. Wage theft is an entirely appropriate name. You could also call it "wage misappropriation" or "wage embezzlement" (though "embezzlement" generally applies to company property) if you want to make it sound classier :-P

SamReidHughes 6y ago
They are literally comparing against robbery. Burglary is violence too. So is pickpocketing.
- triceratops 6y ago
  > Burglary is violence too. So is pickpocketing. They literally are not. If I have my pocket picked or my house burgled when I'm out, I may not find out until later. There was no violence or threat of violence employed against my person. Robbery and theft are legally defined as separate crimes. The former is treated far more harshly than the latter.
  - SamReidHughes 6y ago
    If it takes violence to protect yourself from that trespass, then instigating that is an act of violence.
    - triceratops 6y ago
      Feel free to put your own spin on the law (not to mention, the English language) but the courts don't see it that way.
      - SamReidHughes 6y ago
        Yes they do. If somebody’s got their hand in your pocket, you can forcibly remove it. If they’re burgling your house, you’ve got the right to shoot them dead.
        triceratops 6y ago
        > If somebody’s got their hand in your pocket, you can forcibly remove it. It's still pickpocketing, which is theft. Unless they employ force against you in turn, or threaten you, to stop you from removing their hand. That makes it robbery. > If they’re burgling your house, you’ve got the right to shoot them dead. It's still burglary, which is theft. Unless they also employ violence against you, or threaten violence against you, in the course of committing the burglary. That makes it robbery. This isn't my opinion, so there's no use arguing with me. You're arguing against the law and the English language.
        SamReidHughes 6y ago
        In most of America you can shoot people who are burglarizing in your house. It's called the castle doctrine. In Texas you can shoot them as they're running off with your property, if it's after dark.
        triceratops 6y ago
        That's great and all but has no bearing on whether the intruder is a thief or a robber. Even in Texas. They have to offer violence or threaten it to be considered a robber. Otherwise they're a trespasser or thief. If you don't like this, take it up with the dictionary. Sorry for the bluntness but this is getting a bit ridiculous.
  - jacinabox 6y ago
    We need to enforce the laws as they are written and right now that means prosecuting time theft by employees a criminal offense. Law and economics tells us that the degree of wrong done by inconveniencing someone is in proportion to the worth of that persons time. If a person of importance to society has a suit against them it must be speedily dismissed.
- t-writescode 6y ago
  I suspect you're playing with terms from an academic sense here and we're speaking in a different sense, so you're talking past each other.

ummonk 6y ago

How do you figure? ~50 billion is something like $300 per worker.

SamReidHughes 6y ago
The article says $933 million.
- jakelazaroff 6y ago
  That is the amount recovered: > By contrast, the total amount recovered for the victims of wage theft who retained private lawyers or complained to federal or state agencies was at least $933 million in 2012. This is almost three times greater than all the money stolen in robberies that year. Further, the nearly $1 billion successfully reclaimed by workers is only the tip of the wage-theft iceberg, since most victims never sue and never complain to the government.
- dredmorbius 6y ago
  That's the low estimate, based on recovered losses: But we do know that the total amount of money recovered for the victims of wage theft who retained private lawyers or complained to federal or state agencies was at least $933 million—almost three times greater than all the money stolen in robberies that year. https://www.epi.org/publication/epidemic-wage-theft-costing-workers-hundreds/ https://www.epi.org/publication/epidemic-wage-theft-costing-... High is $50 billion. 2019 workforce was 164 million. -> $305/worker. https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/civilian-labor-force-summary.htm https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/civilian-labor-force-summary....
  - SamReidHughes 6y ago
    That’s what I said in my comment. 50 billion is a made up number. The fact is, this isn’t really theft. It’s a change in wages that has occurred after you switched jobs, only instead of saying “actually we’re going to pay you $X, now that you’ve started,” they sneak in lower wages through other means. That’s not a good thing, but it’s hardball negotiation, not theft.

content_sesh 6y ago

Monetary impact is serving as a proxy and metric for the scope of the problem. As others have pointed out, not all burglary and larceny is necessarily violent. But you're also missing the point that wage theft is not always a dispassionate contract dispute between equal parties. Especially for those most vulnerable (minimum wage workers, people with medical conditions, people with dependents, the food and housing insecure) there is a massive level of coercion going on as well. These individuals often cannot afford to risk a legal fight to assert their claims to what they're fairly owed. I have friends who knew their employer was stealing from them and had to forgo things like medications because they couldn't make ends meet that month. Friends in the restaurant industry who've had to skips meals and go hungry while their manager skimmed from the tip pool. It may not meet the Oxford English Dictionary definition of "violence" but it sure seemed like violence to me.