6 ms·

What are the needs for concealed carry at Apple? For some reason this reminds me of Apple’s security team attempting to recover (by force) the lost iPhone 4.

cbozeman 6y ago
The same reason there are needs for concealed carry every single place on Earth. You don't want bad actors to know who is - and who isn't - armed.
- tasty_freeze 6y ago
  I'll offer a counter-example to your claim that CCW is needed every single place on earth: my home. I don't have a gun. If someone comes in to my home with a gun, even if they are a "good guy", the odds of my dying by gunshot would instantly go up by a large multiple. In comparison, the odds that I'm going to suffer a home invasion, that I would have been shot without the friendly gun owner, and that person successfully prevents it is vanishingly small. I realize that not everybody lives where that calculation comes out that way, but to claim it CCW makes sense everywhere is unsupportable.
  - 15155 6y ago
    You are free to defend yourself (or not!) however you please! Ultimately - that's okay, so long as my rights and the safety of my family aren't subject to another's particular distaste for self-preservation.
    - tasty_freeze 6y ago
      > another's particular distaste for self-preservation. 15155, I'm sure you are a smart person, but stop for a second and really inspect what you have done here. It is obvious to me you are not making a reasoned argument, but an emotional one, but think it is reasoned. I spelled out clearly a situation where someone entering my home with a gun increases my chance of injury or death. Your retort is to claim I have a distaste for self-preservation. You didn't apparently think about what my claim was or counter with an argument why my logical deduction was wrong, but instead just assumed I don't want to avoid death or injury. So let me break it down. I live in a safe neighborhood. I don't have a gun. If you, a good guy with a gun, entered my home at my invitation, did my chances of injury or death just go up or down? I'm not claiming it is a significant chance, just that it a large multiple of an already minuscule probability.
- antpls 6y ago
  That is simply not true. There is no need for concealed carry in France nor UK, for example. Even the Wikipedia article on the topic lists numerous scientific studies showing that the effectiveness of concealed carry varies in place and time, and that there is almost no link between concealed carry and lower crime rates : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_Unite...
  - sepples 6y ago
    Northern Ireland is part of the UK, and the government currently grants licenses to carry a concealed handgun there despite having highly restrictive laws elsewhere in the country. I highly doubt this would be the case if there wasn't a strong recognized need.
  - tesmar2 6y ago
    Tell that to the poor souls at Charlie Hebdo.
    - antpls 6y ago
      Homicide rates are publicly available per country by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. The homicide rate for USA is 5 per 100 000 hab in 2018. For France, it is 1.2 You are 3 times more likely to die in USA than in France from an homicide
      - tesmar2 6y ago
        Once again, tell that to those poor souls. Even if I believed your numbers, this does not take away your right to self defense from a robber or tyrant.
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
It's just the cheaper (because there's a bunch of things more risky about it) equivalent of hiring a body guard. Why not?
- anoonmoose 6y ago
  I mean, you said why not yourself. There's a lot that goes into being a bodyguard that makes it quite different from allowing random employees to carry.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    > There's a lot that goes into being a bodyguard No. There isn't. I used to work for a company that fielded body guards as one of their many services. Basically just have a pulse, don't have a criminal history, pass a fairly trivial interview that's designed to filter out people who think they're gonna be billy-badass or that it's gonna be an exiting job. There's a reason it doesn't pay well. Almost anyone can do it. Driving a floor polisher was more lucrative and sucked less so I did that.
  - da_big_ghey 6y ago
    I think this is a cultural thing that causes people in other places to worry too much about concealed firearms. I'm from Texas, where it's generally understood that there is a very good chance that any given person is carrying. Not just Joe Tough Guy either, there are plenty of old ladies with .25 ACPs in their handbags. People don't see it as scary or abnormal the same way other places do; it's just a tool that many people carry. I've only ever seen one incident where someone got stupid with a concealed handgun, and that guy was clearly a moron and had been drinking quite a bit. "Random people" carrying isn't really an issue. And because they're not seen as an exceptional or evil scary thing, most people are less-likely to abuse them, at least from what I've seen.
    - anoonmoose 6y ago
      At the end of the day, Texas, however you may feel living there/being from there, has a higher per capita firearm death rate than several large states with stricter gun laws and many countries with stricter gun laws, and I personally believe those things to be related.
beervirus 6y ago
I live in a nice area in a nice town. I work in a place that’s generally quite safe. I still carry a gun. You never know.
- mdorazio 6y ago
  You never know... what? I'm a 2A supporter and a hunter, but I simply don't understand this kind of reasoning for why you need to concealed carry. The chance of you ever being in a position where having a firearm on you in public will make things better rather than worse is so ridiculously small that it just reeks of irrational fear. If you're that afraid of whatever situations you're imagining, how do you ever get in a car when your chance of getting injured or killed in one is astronomically higher? That said, California's constant fight against 2A with absolutely idiotic rules needs to die.
  - beervirus 6y ago
    I’ve never had a fire in my kitchen, but I still keep a fire extinguisher. I’ve never had cancer, but I still have medical insurance. The marginal cost of carrying a gun is basically zero. If I ever do find myself in a situation where I need it, I’ll be glad to have it. And even if I don’t, the fact that random anonymous law-abiding citizens have guns is itself a crime deterrent.
    - danaris 6y ago
      The marginal cost of carrying a gun is an enormous increase in the probability that you, personally, will be killed by a gun.
      - beervirus 6y ago
        There's a correlation because people who live in dangerous places tend to carry guns. But that's not causation--there's no reason to suspect that carrying a gun increases my chances of being killed by a gun.
binarycodedhex 6y ago
Uh, do think any billionaire like Tim Cook can just drive themselves home, go to the supermarket, and throw legitimate concerns about being kidnapped to the wind? (Although I did run into TC by himself over by Guy Kawasaki's old Garage Ventures' office in Menlo.)
ApolloRising 6y ago
On apples campus he probably would be allowed to carry just by the business itself, similar to a bank security guard. Off campus is where the permit would be used to carry. They wanted to carry it anywhere in the state where it is permitted for CCW holders, so that's the probably reason they applied. It also allows you to buy a gun without a waiting period (I know this is the case for cops).
- Rebelgecko 6y ago
  The only way to be exempt from a waiting period is to become a LEO or by getting certain categories of FFL (federal firearms license, which can come with a lot of stipulations). At one point there was a court ruling saying that the waiting period was unconstitutional for people who already owned guns or had CCWs, but it was appealed
ggggtez 6y ago
I don't think the need is at Apple, but rather, for personal bodyguards to the CEO. This appears to be the reason Facebook was involved in the same scheme.
mlindner 6y ago
Concealed carry is the only type of carry in California.

cbozeman 6y ago

The same reason there are needs for concealed carry every single place on Earth. You don't want bad actors to know who is - and who isn't - armed.

tasty_freeze 6y ago
I'll offer a counter-example to your claim that CCW is needed every single place on earth: my home. I don't have a gun. If someone comes in to my home with a gun, even if they are a "good guy", the odds of my dying by gunshot would instantly go up by a large multiple. In comparison, the odds that I'm going to suffer a home invasion, that I would have been shot without the friendly gun owner, and that person successfully prevents it is vanishingly small. I realize that not everybody lives where that calculation comes out that way, but to claim it CCW makes sense everywhere is unsupportable.
- 15155 6y ago
  You are free to defend yourself (or not!) however you please! Ultimately - that's okay, so long as my rights and the safety of my family aren't subject to another's particular distaste for self-preservation.
  - tasty_freeze 6y ago
    > another's particular distaste for self-preservation. 15155, I'm sure you are a smart person, but stop for a second and really inspect what you have done here. It is obvious to me you are not making a reasoned argument, but an emotional one, but think it is reasoned. I spelled out clearly a situation where someone entering my home with a gun increases my chance of injury or death. Your retort is to claim I have a distaste for self-preservation. You didn't apparently think about what my claim was or counter with an argument why my logical deduction was wrong, but instead just assumed I don't want to avoid death or injury. So let me break it down. I live in a safe neighborhood. I don't have a gun. If you, a good guy with a gun, entered my home at my invitation, did my chances of injury or death just go up or down? I'm not claiming it is a significant chance, just that it a large multiple of an already minuscule probability.
antpls 6y ago
That is simply not true. There is no need for concealed carry in France nor UK, for example. Even the Wikipedia article on the topic lists numerous scientific studies showing that the effectiveness of concealed carry varies in place and time, and that there is almost no link between concealed carry and lower crime rates : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_Unite...
- sepples 6y ago
  Northern Ireland is part of the UK, and the government currently grants licenses to carry a concealed handgun there despite having highly restrictive laws elsewhere in the country. I highly doubt this would be the case if there wasn't a strong recognized need.
- tesmar2 6y ago
  Tell that to the poor souls at Charlie Hebdo.
  - antpls 6y ago
    Homicide rates are publicly available per country by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. The homicide rate for USA is 5 per 100 000 hab in 2018. For France, it is 1.2 You are 3 times more likely to die in USA than in France from an homicide
    - tesmar2 6y ago
      Once again, tell that to those poor souls. Even if I believed your numbers, this does not take away your right to self defense from a robber or tyrant.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

It's just the cheaper (because there's a bunch of things more risky about it) equivalent of hiring a body guard. Why not?

anoonmoose 6y ago
I mean, you said why not yourself. There's a lot that goes into being a bodyguard that makes it quite different from allowing random employees to carry.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  > There's a lot that goes into being a bodyguard No. There isn't. I used to work for a company that fielded body guards as one of their many services. Basically just have a pulse, don't have a criminal history, pass a fairly trivial interview that's designed to filter out people who think they're gonna be billy-badass or that it's gonna be an exiting job. There's a reason it doesn't pay well. Almost anyone can do it. Driving a floor polisher was more lucrative and sucked less so I did that.
- da_big_ghey 6y ago
  I think this is a cultural thing that causes people in other places to worry too much about concealed firearms. I'm from Texas, where it's generally understood that there is a very good chance that any given person is carrying. Not just Joe Tough Guy either, there are plenty of old ladies with .25 ACPs in their handbags. People don't see it as scary or abnormal the same way other places do; it's just a tool that many people carry. I've only ever seen one incident where someone got stupid with a concealed handgun, and that guy was clearly a moron and had been drinking quite a bit. "Random people" carrying isn't really an issue. And because they're not seen as an exceptional or evil scary thing, most people are less-likely to abuse them, at least from what I've seen.
  - anoonmoose 6y ago
    At the end of the day, Texas, however you may feel living there/being from there, has a higher per capita firearm death rate than several large states with stricter gun laws and many countries with stricter gun laws, and I personally believe those things to be related.

beervirus 6y ago

I live in a nice area in a nice town. I work in a place that’s generally quite safe. I still carry a gun. You never know.

mdorazio 6y ago
You never know... what? I'm a 2A supporter and a hunter, but I simply don't understand this kind of reasoning for why you need to concealed carry. The chance of you ever being in a position where having a firearm on you in public will make things better rather than worse is so ridiculously small that it just reeks of irrational fear. If you're that afraid of whatever situations you're imagining, how do you ever get in a car when your chance of getting injured or killed in one is astronomically higher? That said, California's constant fight against 2A with absolutely idiotic rules needs to die.
- beervirus 6y ago
  I’ve never had a fire in my kitchen, but I still keep a fire extinguisher. I’ve never had cancer, but I still have medical insurance. The marginal cost of carrying a gun is basically zero. If I ever do find myself in a situation where I need it, I’ll be glad to have it. And even if I don’t, the fact that random anonymous law-abiding citizens have guns is itself a crime deterrent.
  - danaris 6y ago
    The marginal cost of carrying a gun is an enormous increase in the probability that you, personally, will be killed by a gun.
    - beervirus 6y ago
      There's a correlation because people who live in dangerous places tend to carry guns. But that's not causation--there's no reason to suspect that carrying a gun increases my chances of being killed by a gun.

binarycodedhex 6y ago

Uh, do think any billionaire like Tim Cook can just drive themselves home, go to the supermarket, and throw legitimate concerns about being kidnapped to the wind? (Although I did run into TC by himself over by Guy Kawasaki's old Garage Ventures' office in Menlo.)

ApolloRising 6y ago

On apples campus he probably would be allowed to carry just by the business itself, similar to a bank security guard. Off campus is where the permit would be used to carry. They wanted to carry it anywhere in the state where it is permitted for CCW holders, so that's the probably reason they applied. It also allows you to buy a gun without a waiting period (I know this is the case for cops).

Rebelgecko 6y ago
The only way to be exempt from a waiting period is to become a LEO or by getting certain categories of FFL (federal firearms license, which can come with a lot of stipulations). At one point there was a court ruling saying that the waiting period was unconstitutional for people who already owned guns or had CCWs, but it was appealed

ggggtez 6y ago

I don't think the need is at Apple, but rather, for personal bodyguards to the CEO. This appears to be the reason Facebook was involved in the same scheme.

mlindner 6y ago

Concealed carry is the only type of carry in California.