5 ms·

How long before tractor manufacturers buy "environmental regulations" to prohibit the use of older machinery?

zwayhowder 6y ago
As Reed's replacing the engines with newer engines it probably won't be a problem for him. Of course not everyone has the skills or time to do that.
- afandian 6y ago
  I'm not imagining a good-faith law here. To draw a parallel, and I don't know how things work in the states, in Europe the CE mark is only valid when the equipment is installed in the approved way. I did this for a boat once (including a brand new engine), and the relevant regulation is the Recreational Craft Directive. To get a boat legal to sell, you need to perform a relevant declaration, reference to the correct EU regulations and their localised translation into law, pay someone qualified to prepare the paperwork and translate the regulations ... a nightmare of paperwork and very expensive. I'm not suggesting any bad-faith legistlation in the Recreational Craft Directive, I fully support very progressive environmental regulations, and not drawing the parallel too too closely... But if you did want to curtail people's freedoms through regulation paperwork, there are all kinds of places you could hide a gotcha. Off the top of my head: - How about the energy efficiency of the whole power train? - Approved lubricants. - Annual energy efficiency certification of the whole vehicle from an approved organisation.
durkie 6y ago
electric conversions seem like they'd make a lot of sense here anyways. high torque and low maintenance.
- dejv 6y ago
  As a farmer I am interested buying one, especially as I am using tractors for light work: spraying, towing and light field work. There are few hacked tractors already available, but it will take some time before supply chain mature enough. I am pessimistic about having heavy duty industrial scale tractors with current battery technology. Those machines are monsters and when you interpolate consumption from light workloads to those monsters it just doesn't compute. Another angle in economics is that those machines have to work for many hours a day (combines in heavy seasons run for 12+, 7 days a week) which is also hard with current batteries.
  - JamisonM 6y ago
    I believe that this is the area where hydrogen technology is supposed to step in. I am sceptical of that as well though. As you note the light loads will do well with electric systems, there is a lot of low hanging fruit to take care of on every farm before the big horsepower will get tackled.. and maybe autonomous tech will get good enough that the answer will instead be replacing a lot of the high-HP jobs with more lower HP jobs instead?
    - jelliclesfarm 6y ago
      Depends on the what’s being grown. Sometimes you need monster HP. Even with light work, electrical systems add to the weight leading to built in inefficiencies. I don’t know if we can move away from diesel at this point.
      - JamisonM 6y ago
        You need monster HP when you are trying to do a lot in a single pass, when I talk about the idea of autonomous+electric I am envisioning trading less work per pass for less HP and trading that off for more units and less labour. Back in the bad old days you'd work 6 inches deep with a single-bottom plow behind a single draft horse! You can always break it up enough to get the HP down! ;)
        jelliclesfarm 6y ago
        It’s suitable for vegetable and small acreage farms. That’s the farm automation platform I am working on...we can swarm small Ag bots over connected small acreages. It’s the best use of robotics and automation tech in the field because every market farm or small acreage farm flips beds 2-3 times/year and have crops that have continuous multiple harvest windows.
      - vvanders 6y ago
        If you're doing ground work with a tractor then weight is actually a good thing. The way it was always explained to me is weight determines what the tractor is capable of, horsepower is how quickly you could do it.
- bluGill 6y ago
  Not for tractors of this size. A Tesla has enough battery to last maybe 10 minutes at the rate big tractors use power. A Tesla might put out 500 horsepower for 3 seconds, but then it is up to the speed limit and you back off to 20 horsepower for the rest of the trip. A tractor starts off putting out 500 horsepower, and maintains that for 10 hours or so.
  - beambot 6y ago
    That's like comparing a Camry to a Deere -- you'd redesign the entire vehicle for peak & nominal loads. Going from a 4,000 lb tesla to a 25,000 lb tractor, you'd accumulate significant additional battery mass & completely redesign EV systems (motors, controllers, batteries, charge paths, etc). A more apt comparison would be the Tesla Semi. While you're at it... it might be worth completely re-thinking the problem in light of semi-autonomy. E.g. if you're going to have recharge periods, a fleet of 3x 8000-lb semi-autonomous robots might be preferable to a single 25,000 lb tractor (since labor is no longer a consideration). This also has benefits for soil compaction. YMMV.
    - bluGill 6y ago
      > a fleet of 3x 8000-lb semi-autonomous robots might be preferable to a single 25,000 lb tractor (since labor is no longer a consideration). This also has benefits for soil compaction. Actually this is false. Turns out soil compaction is NOT linear with weight. Your 8000lbs tractor making 3 passes compacts the soil across 3 sets of tire tracks, the 1 25000lbs tractor does about 10% more compaction in the one set of tire tracks, but no compaction at all for the other 2 where there are not tires at all. This is why tracks end up worse then tires in the real world: same 10% less compaction, but you lose all the gains at the end of the row when you turn and now the tracks compact a lot more ground.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- tomohawk 6y ago
  Hydraulic hybrid conversion might make more sense. https://www.machinedesign.com/markets/energy/article/21831949/hydraulic-hybrids-can-power-offroad-vehicles https://www.machinedesign.com/markets/energy/article/2183194...

As Reed's replacing the engines with newer engines it probably won't be a problem for him. Of course not everyone has the skills or time to do that.

afandian 6y ago
I'm not imagining a good-faith law here. To draw a parallel, and I don't know how things work in the states, in Europe the CE mark is only valid when the equipment is installed in the approved way. I did this for a boat once (including a brand new engine), and the relevant regulation is the Recreational Craft Directive. To get a boat legal to sell, you need to perform a relevant declaration, reference to the correct EU regulations and their localised translation into law, pay someone qualified to prepare the paperwork and translate the regulations ... a nightmare of paperwork and very expensive. I'm not suggesting any bad-faith legistlation in the Recreational Craft Directive, I fully support very progressive environmental regulations, and not drawing the parallel too too closely... But if you did want to curtail people's freedoms through regulation paperwork, there are all kinds of places you could hide a gotcha. Off the top of my head: - How about the energy efficiency of the whole power train? - Approved lubricants. - Annual energy efficiency certification of the whole vehicle from an approved organisation.

durkie 6y ago

electric conversions seem like they'd make a lot of sense here anyways. high torque and low maintenance.

dejv 6y ago
As a farmer I am interested buying one, especially as I am using tractors for light work: spraying, towing and light field work. There are few hacked tractors already available, but it will take some time before supply chain mature enough. I am pessimistic about having heavy duty industrial scale tractors with current battery technology. Those machines are monsters and when you interpolate consumption from light workloads to those monsters it just doesn't compute. Another angle in economics is that those machines have to work for many hours a day (combines in heavy seasons run for 12+, 7 days a week) which is also hard with current batteries.
- JamisonM 6y ago
  I believe that this is the area where hydrogen technology is supposed to step in. I am sceptical of that as well though. As you note the light loads will do well with electric systems, there is a lot of low hanging fruit to take care of on every farm before the big horsepower will get tackled.. and maybe autonomous tech will get good enough that the answer will instead be replacing a lot of the high-HP jobs with more lower HP jobs instead?
  - jelliclesfarm 6y ago
    Depends on the what’s being grown. Sometimes you need monster HP. Even with light work, electrical systems add to the weight leading to built in inefficiencies. I don’t know if we can move away from diesel at this point.
    - JamisonM 6y ago
      You need monster HP when you are trying to do a lot in a single pass, when I talk about the idea of autonomous+electric I am envisioning trading less work per pass for less HP and trading that off for more units and less labour. Back in the bad old days you'd work 6 inches deep with a single-bottom plow behind a single draft horse! You can always break it up enough to get the HP down! ;)
      - jelliclesfarm 6y ago
        It’s suitable for vegetable and small acreage farms. That’s the farm automation platform I am working on...we can swarm small Ag bots over connected small acreages. It’s the best use of robotics and automation tech in the field because every market farm or small acreage farm flips beds 2-3 times/year and have crops that have continuous multiple harvest windows.
    - vvanders 6y ago
      If you're doing ground work with a tractor then weight is actually a good thing. The way it was always explained to me is weight determines what the tractor is capable of, horsepower is how quickly you could do it.
bluGill 6y ago
Not for tractors of this size. A Tesla has enough battery to last maybe 10 minutes at the rate big tractors use power. A Tesla might put out 500 horsepower for 3 seconds, but then it is up to the speed limit and you back off to 20 horsepower for the rest of the trip. A tractor starts off putting out 500 horsepower, and maintains that for 10 hours or so.
- beambot 6y ago
  That's like comparing a Camry to a Deere -- you'd redesign the entire vehicle for peak & nominal loads. Going from a 4,000 lb tesla to a 25,000 lb tractor, you'd accumulate significant additional battery mass & completely redesign EV systems (motors, controllers, batteries, charge paths, etc). A more apt comparison would be the Tesla Semi. While you're at it... it might be worth completely re-thinking the problem in light of semi-autonomy. E.g. if you're going to have recharge periods, a fleet of 3x 8000-lb semi-autonomous robots might be preferable to a single 25,000 lb tractor (since labor is no longer a consideration). This also has benefits for soil compaction. YMMV.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    > a fleet of 3x 8000-lb semi-autonomous robots might be preferable to a single 25,000 lb tractor (since labor is no longer a consideration). This also has benefits for soil compaction. Actually this is false. Turns out soil compaction is NOT linear with weight. Your 8000lbs tractor making 3 passes compacts the soil across 3 sets of tire tracks, the 1 25000lbs tractor does about 10% more compaction in the one set of tire tracks, but no compaction at all for the other 2 where there are not tires at all. This is why tracks end up worse then tires in the real world: same 10% less compaction, but you lose all the gains at the end of the row when you turn and now the tracks compact a lot more ground.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
tomohawk 6y ago
Hydraulic hybrid conversion might make more sense. https://www.machinedesign.com/markets/energy/article/21831949/hydraulic-hybrids-can-power-offroad-vehicles https://www.machinedesign.com/markets/energy/article/2183194...