4 ms·

Can you share a link to the mailchimp thing? I'd missed that.

kstrauser 6y ago
Here's a list of stuff Mailchimp won't distribute, along with the reasons they won't carry it: https://mailchimp.com/legal/acceptable_use/ https://mailchimp.com/legal/acceptable_use/ That all seems pretty reasonable, and it's not like we have the right to demand that a private company host our content.
- CamperBob2 6y ago
  "Sexually explicit content" is "pretty reasonable" to censor, in your view?
  - kstrauser 6y ago
    Definitely. That's one of the most common things in most services' ToSes. From a business point of view, carrying that content probably causes much more hassle than it's worth for most companies that aren't set up for the adult entertainment industry. If and when a customer accidentally sends porn to a 13 year old, which would you rather tell the parent screaming at you: "we're sorry and we'll instruct the customer not to do that again" or "oh my, that's against our policies and we'll be sure to cancel their account. Thank you and please don't organize a pitchforked mob to march on our headquarters". I don't care if adults look at porn or engage in porn-based commerce; I'm not saying "porn is immoral and it's good to block it!" I do believe that the vast majority of businesses not already working with that industry don't want the aggravation that comes along with dealing with that content, though, and that's why it's widely barred.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - CamperBob2 6y ago
      Maybe I'm unclear on what Mailchimp does. Do they host private mailing lists, or just do outbound 'opt-in-but-not-really' marketing?
      - kstrauser 6y ago
        If they host mailing lists, that's something I've never stumbled across.
      - ogre_codes 6y ago
        They host (mostly) legit bulk email. So if you subscribe to a newsletter or get announcements about sales from a web page via email, it's likely MailChimp
        CamperBob2 6y ago
        The newsletter part is what I was driving at. If they host that sort of thing, then are they lumping in private newsletters or mailing lists for sexual abuse therapists (or survivors) with unabashed pornography? This is just one reason why people should not eagerly condemn everything that is "sexually explicit" and hand-wave it away ("Yuck, of course no one wants anything to do with that.") On a site called Hacker News, people should grok that, but the audience around here isn't what it once was. Do you people want Gilead? Because this is how you get Gilead.
        ogre_codes 6y ago
        I highly doubt a legitimate newsletter or mailing list for sexual abuse therapists would be sending out "sexually explicit" content. It's not insanely difficult to start your own mailing list/ newsletter service. At my previous job, I had did exactly that. Then you can absorb the potential legal liabilities yourself.
- crocodiletears 6y ago
  Thanks, and this list is indeed, not terrible. Think I found it in the ToS, though. _"Mailchimp also does not allow the distribution of Content that is, in our sole discretion, materially false, inaccurate, or misleading in a way that could deceive or confuse others about important events, topics, or circumstances."_ Once upon a time, l'd consider this reasonable. They're within their right as a company. But anymore I wouldn't use their service if I was looking for a mail distribution platform.
  - kstrauser 6y ago
    I'm so torn on that one. On one hand, yeah, it's creepy that a company would decide whether my content is truthful enough to carry. On the other, there's been so much targeted disinformation this year that I can totally understand Mailchimp not wanting to carry QAnon idiocy, or anti-vaccine propaganda, or "COVID is a hoax" things, or other content that causes direct, measurable harm against the country.
    - crocodiletears 6y ago
      My big issue, is that I don't particularly trust any organnization to audit information in a non-partisan manner within the context of our polarized political and media landscapes. I fully trust that the policy has been implemented with the best of intentions, but without a common core of cultural values, an environment of partisan hostility, and accepted narratives downstream from the raw data being interpreted as the absolute 'truth' by either side, I think it's safest to select contractors that you expect won't fold under political pressure, or engage in their own activism if your product is meant to be mass market. Either that, or integrate a level of service redundancy to account for potential deplatforming from any of your providers. If your product or service is meant to serve a partisan niche, I think you have a lot more latitude.

Here's a list of stuff Mailchimp won't distribute, along with the reasons they won't carry it: https://mailchimp.com/legal/acceptable_use/ https://mailchimp.com/legal/acceptable_use/ That all seems pretty reasonable, and it's not like we have the right to demand that a private company host our content.

CamperBob2 6y ago
"Sexually explicit content" is "pretty reasonable" to censor, in your view?
- kstrauser 6y ago
  Definitely. That's one of the most common things in most services' ToSes. From a business point of view, carrying that content probably causes much more hassle than it's worth for most companies that aren't set up for the adult entertainment industry. If and when a customer accidentally sends porn to a 13 year old, which would you rather tell the parent screaming at you: "we're sorry and we'll instruct the customer not to do that again" or "oh my, that's against our policies and we'll be sure to cancel their account. Thank you and please don't organize a pitchforked mob to march on our headquarters". I don't care if adults look at porn or engage in porn-based commerce; I'm not saying "porn is immoral and it's good to block it!" I do believe that the vast majority of businesses not already working with that industry don't want the aggravation that comes along with dealing with that content, though, and that's why it's widely barred.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - CamperBob2 6y ago
    Maybe I'm unclear on what Mailchimp does. Do they host private mailing lists, or just do outbound 'opt-in-but-not-really' marketing?
    - kstrauser 6y ago
      If they host mailing lists, that's something I've never stumbled across.
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      They host (mostly) legit bulk email. So if you subscribe to a newsletter or get announcements about sales from a web page via email, it's likely MailChimp
      - CamperBob2 6y ago
        The newsletter part is what I was driving at. If they host that sort of thing, then are they lumping in private newsletters or mailing lists for sexual abuse therapists (or survivors) with unabashed pornography? This is just one reason why people should not eagerly condemn everything that is "sexually explicit" and hand-wave it away ("Yuck, of course no one wants anything to do with that.") On a site called Hacker News, people should grok that, but the audience around here isn't what it once was. Do you people want Gilead? Because this is how you get Gilead.
        ogre_codes 6y ago
        I highly doubt a legitimate newsletter or mailing list for sexual abuse therapists would be sending out "sexually explicit" content. It's not insanely difficult to start your own mailing list/ newsletter service. At my previous job, I had did exactly that. Then you can absorb the potential legal liabilities yourself.
crocodiletears 6y ago
Thanks, and this list is indeed, not terrible. Think I found it in the ToS, though. _"Mailchimp also does not allow the distribution of Content that is, in our sole discretion, materially false, inaccurate, or misleading in a way that could deceive or confuse others about important events, topics, or circumstances."_ Once upon a time, l'd consider this reasonable. They're within their right as a company. But anymore I wouldn't use their service if I was looking for a mail distribution platform.
- kstrauser 6y ago
  I'm so torn on that one. On one hand, yeah, it's creepy that a company would decide whether my content is truthful enough to carry. On the other, there's been so much targeted disinformation this year that I can totally understand Mailchimp not wanting to carry QAnon idiocy, or anti-vaccine propaganda, or "COVID is a hoax" things, or other content that causes direct, measurable harm against the country.
  - crocodiletears 6y ago
    My big issue, is that I don't particularly trust any organnization to audit information in a non-partisan manner within the context of our polarized political and media landscapes. I fully trust that the policy has been implemented with the best of intentions, but without a common core of cultural values, an environment of partisan hostility, and accepted narratives downstream from the raw data being interpreted as the absolute 'truth' by either side, I think it's safest to select contractors that you expect won't fold under political pressure, or engage in their own activism if your product is meant to be mass market. Either that, or integrate a level of service redundancy to account for potential deplatforming from any of your providers. If your product or service is meant to serve a partisan niche, I think you have a lot more latitude.