4 ms·

>The Romans weren't particularly brutal given their time- being beaten by the Celts and being beaten by the Romans would be a similar experience. Funny that yo

by Hitton 6y ago

>The Romans weren't particularly brutal given their time- being beaten by the Celts and being beaten by the Romans would be a similar experience. Funny that you say that. You could say that during WW2 Germans weren't particularly brutal compared to Soviets. Aside of death camps (which weren't really Wehrmacht's thing) you could probably even say that it was Red Army which was more brutal and committed more war crimes (if only by virtue of Wehrmacht's better discipline).

panzagl 6y ago
I was going to add the Soviets to the list, but I don't know enough about their mass treatment of German civilians in particular, though obvious they treated their own civilians badly enough. The Eastern front was more brutal, but brutality of soldiers against soldiers is not really an exception even in modern warfare as opposed to organized murder and abuses of enemy non-combatants on a strategic scale.
- Hitton 6y ago
  Why just treatment of German civilians? Soviets were assholes to pretty much everybody. Baltic states, Hungary, Poland, Yugoslavia, Finland, China, ... - they all enjoyed "friendliness" of Soviets. They also raped women liberated from concentration camps. During liberation of Poland it's estimated they raped ~100,000 women. Talk about saving the victims.
  - panzagl 6y ago
    The Soviets were bad, but I am not personally familiar enough with the sources to say whether Soviet atrocities were official policy, ill-disciplined soldiers or both. The Eastern Front is popular with a certain sort of armchair historian/wargamer/etc. because 'the Germans were the good guys' (or 'there were no good guys') which allows them to distance themselves from the atrocities while still fetishizing the cool tanks and uniforms. Seems spurious to me, but it's not like I would call someone on it and tell them they're a bad person.
watwut 6y ago
That is not actually true. German army behavior in Eastern front was literally genocidal. Death camps were only one part of project. There was no discipline preventing Wehrmacht's or SS war crimes at eastern front - because those were not seen as breach of discipline. There was nothing of that sort that would cause trouble to soldier, per policy, because the place was meant to be living space for germans and germans only in long term. And when you add SS batalions literally composed of basically uncontrolable convicted criminals and literally tasked with removal of civilian population, your thesis becomes even more absurd.

by Hitton 6y ago

panzagl 6y ago

I was going to add the Soviets to the list, but I don't know enough about their mass treatment of German civilians in particular, though obvious they treated their own civilians badly enough. The Eastern front was more brutal, but brutality of soldiers against soldiers is not really an exception even in modern warfare as opposed to organized murder and abuses of enemy non-combatants on a strategic scale.

Hitton 6y ago
Why just treatment of German civilians? Soviets were assholes to pretty much everybody. Baltic states, Hungary, Poland, Yugoslavia, Finland, China, ... - they all enjoyed "friendliness" of Soviets. They also raped women liberated from concentration camps. During liberation of Poland it's estimated they raped ~100,000 women. Talk about saving the victims.
- panzagl 6y ago
  The Soviets were bad, but I am not personally familiar enough with the sources to say whether Soviet atrocities were official policy, ill-disciplined soldiers or both. The Eastern Front is popular with a certain sort of armchair historian/wargamer/etc. because 'the Germans were the good guys' (or 'there were no good guys') which allows them to distance themselves from the atrocities while still fetishizing the cool tanks and uniforms. Seems spurious to me, but it's not like I would call someone on it and tell them they're a bad person.

watwut 6y ago

That is not actually true. German army behavior in Eastern front was literally genocidal. Death camps were only one part of project. There was no discipline preventing Wehrmacht's or SS war crimes at eastern front - because those were not seen as breach of discipline. There was nothing of that sort that would cause trouble to soldier, per policy, because the place was meant to be living space for germans and germans only in long term. And when you add SS batalions literally composed of basically uncontrolable convicted criminals and literally tasked with removal of civilian population, your thesis becomes even more absurd.