6 ms·

Not directly related but linked via crew rest: Back in grad school, one of my friends was married to a gentleman who was a pilot in the Air Force and his job w

Not directly related but linked via crew rest: Back in grad school, one of my friends was married to a gentleman who was a pilot in the Air Force and his job was flying aerial refuelling tankers (aka KC-130s). I learned two interesting facts from him: - Even with the "War on Terror" going on in full swing, Air Force pilots were under the same FAA crew rest procedures as commercial (e.g. Delta, United etc) aviators - In the event that a hostile air force was targeting the AWACS (giant airborne RADAR platforms), the combat air traffic controllers would route the KC-130s in between the attackers and the AWACS. The idea was that the attackers would be confused and take out the tankers instead. The thinking here was that losing a tanker (essentially a giant flying gas can) was more acceptable than a complex electronics platform filled with specialists. Makes sense but still sobering from the perspective of the tanker crew.

jacquesm 6y ago
What are the chances of mistaking an AWACS for a tanker or vice versa?
- dsr_ 6y ago
  They're pretty similar except for the giant radome on top of the AWACS. Both are Boeing products from the 707 family.
  - wil421 6y ago
    AWACS E-3 is based on the Boeing 707. The KC-130 is based on the Lockheed C-130 and has turboprops. SAMs aren’t picky though.
    - chipsa 6y ago
      Yeah, but the Air Force doesn't fly KC-130s. They do fly KC-135s, and C-130s, but there's no point for adding the KC package on for the Air Force. Everything the USAF wants to refuel is fast enough that the KC-135s are a better plane for the USAF.
- mauvehaus 6y ago
  It probably varies greatly based on whether you're sitting on the ground firing SAMs based on RADAR returns or looking out the canopy of a pointy-nosed jet. Although if you're that close to a fat target, you've probably basically won the engagement.
- jcranmer 6y ago
  On the one hand, AWACS has a giant round protruding antenna that makes it instantly recognizable in any photograph. On the other hand, you would probably engaging any aircraft at sufficient distance that you might not be able to make out many details about it.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  The missiles can get confused by chaff and flares. They're not gonna be able to do a very good job telling the difference between a 767 and 707 under combat conditions.
- m463 6y ago
  I don't know if I could make out the difference at 1000 feet in daylight, let alone 30,000 feet
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    I can do it by ear. But then again, I lived under the AWACS take-off path for over a year.
chrisseaton 6y ago
> Even with the "War on Terror" going on in full swing, Air Force pilots were under the same FAA crew rest procedures as commercial (e.g. Delta, United etc) aviators This is obviously not true, is it? For example 33-hour flights with a crew of 2. https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/04/29/heres-how-b-2-bomber-pilots-pull-off-grueling-33-hour-flights/ https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/04/29/heres-how-b-2-bom...
- chipsa 6y ago
  Only one pilot is flying for the majority of the flight. The pilot not flying is resting, and the switch off as required, and only have both pilots on during the most dangerous parts of flight: takeoff, landing, and in vicinity of the target. That said, for USAF purposes, crew rest isn't during flight: > Crew rest is compulsory for aircrew members prior to performing any duties involving aircraft operations and is a minimum of 12 non-duty hours before the flight duty period (FDP) begins. [0] If they're in flight, it's "Controlled Cockpit Rest" [0] AFMAN 11-202v3: https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a3/publication/afman11-202v3/afman11-202v3.pdf https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a3/public...
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > That said, for USAF purposes, crew rest isn't during flight So... it isn't the same as FAA is it? Because crew rest is during the flight for the FAA - hence the whole point of the article, which is about crew rest stations on the aircraft, not before.

jacquesm 6y ago

What are the chances of mistaking an AWACS for a tanker or vice versa?

dsr_ 6y ago
They're pretty similar except for the giant radome on top of the AWACS. Both are Boeing products from the 707 family.
- wil421 6y ago
  AWACS E-3 is based on the Boeing 707. The KC-130 is based on the Lockheed C-130 and has turboprops. SAMs aren’t picky though.
  - chipsa 6y ago
    Yeah, but the Air Force doesn't fly KC-130s. They do fly KC-135s, and C-130s, but there's no point for adding the KC package on for the Air Force. Everything the USAF wants to refuel is fast enough that the KC-135s are a better plane for the USAF.
mauvehaus 6y ago
It probably varies greatly based on whether you're sitting on the ground firing SAMs based on RADAR returns or looking out the canopy of a pointy-nosed jet. Although if you're that close to a fat target, you've probably basically won the engagement.
jcranmer 6y ago
On the one hand, AWACS has a giant round protruding antenna that makes it instantly recognizable in any photograph. On the other hand, you would probably engaging any aircraft at sufficient distance that you might not be able to make out many details about it.
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
The missiles can get confused by chaff and flares. They're not gonna be able to do a very good job telling the difference between a 767 and 707 under combat conditions.
m463 6y ago
I don't know if I could make out the difference at 1000 feet in daylight, let alone 30,000 feet
- jacquesm 6y ago
  I can do it by ear. But then again, I lived under the AWACS take-off path for over a year.

chrisseaton 6y ago

> Even with the "War on Terror" going on in full swing, Air Force pilots were under the same FAA crew rest procedures as commercial (e.g. Delta, United etc) aviators This is obviously not true, is it? For example 33-hour flights with a crew of 2. https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/04/29/heres-how-b-2-bomber-pilots-pull-off-grueling-33-hour-flights/ https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/04/29/heres-how-b-2-bom...

chipsa 6y ago
Only one pilot is flying for the majority of the flight. The pilot not flying is resting, and the switch off as required, and only have both pilots on during the most dangerous parts of flight: takeoff, landing, and in vicinity of the target. That said, for USAF purposes, crew rest isn't during flight: > Crew rest is compulsory for aircrew members prior to performing any duties involving aircraft operations and is a minimum of 12 non-duty hours before the flight duty period (FDP) begins. [0] If they're in flight, it's "Controlled Cockpit Rest" [0] AFMAN 11-202v3: https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a3/publication/afman11-202v3/afman11-202v3.pdf https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a3/public...
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > That said, for USAF purposes, crew rest isn't during flight So... it isn't the same as FAA is it? Because crew rest is during the flight for the FAA - hence the whole point of the article, which is about crew rest stations on the aircraft, not before.