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Not sure how many of the people on this thread have actually been or lived in China. I have lived there about 2 years and travelled fairly extensively. I cannot
by jbrun 6y ago
Not sure how many of the people on this thread have actually been or lived in China. I have lived there about 2 years and travelled fairly extensively. I cannot speak to these specific villages, but the amount of people lifted out of poverty in China in the last 50 years is probably one of the greatest achievements in human history along with modern science, medicine and rule of law.
- SPBS 6y agoCould you elaborate on why it is such a great achievement? Seems like a pretty natural consequence of their growing economy.
- dzonga 6y agolifting a billion people out of poverty, would be a big achievment in terms of economic planning, logistics and resource planning. those are no small tasks. also while maintaining social integrity. yeah, the ccp takes away a lot of freedoms, but how would you do maintain a cohesive society ?
- _dibly 6y ago>maintaining social integrity >takes away a lot of freedoms pick one?
- bennysonething 6y agoWhy is would a cohesive society require removing freedoms? In fact that west has shown this needn't be the case.
- dzonga 6y agohas the west shown this is the case ? or it's an illusion of freedom ? here in the US, people vote and elect officials etc. But to those officials pass laws that help the people ? hardly so, but instead pass laws that benefit corporations firstly over human people. As a black person, I can speak up against mass incarceration, but do I have power to end it, NO. That's the illusion of freedom. It's the illusion that all men are equal under law, but we know the law treats you differently based on wealth, skin color etc.
- Cymruboogaloo 6y agoYou're looking at a country of a billion people, not only that this increase wasn't hoarded like it in the west it was government directed and shared out among most of the people in the country.
- kieselguhr_kid 6y agoIt's not a natural consequence of economic growth. The United States has hundreds of thousands of people living in extreme poverty, if not more, despite being one of the most developed countries in the world. Why didn't all the growth end it here?
- vlovich123 6y agoThese are semantic games. This isn’t talking about no one in poverty. This is the equivalent of the United States saying there are no states in a state of poverty. Would you care to characterize any states as being in a state of poverty? How is it defined for a state to be in poverty? Given this is a government created list that the government promised to finish by the end of 2020 and that no one but the government is capable of validating it, what are the odds this is at least somewhat a political tool rather than a legitimate accomplishment?
- nwellnhof 6y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_GDP_of_China#/media/File:GDP_per_capita_of_China_and_India.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_GDP_of_China#/media...
- libeclipse 6y agoYou know what else is a great achievement? The very cool concentration camps chilling in Xinjiang.
- trianglem 6y agoBoth things are happening. One very good and the other as bad as it gets.
- rattoot22 6y agoWhile those camps are not ideal, they don't detract from the achievement of lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty in a few decades.
- SubiculumCode 6y agoIdeal? Just say they are wrong and evil
- true_religion 6y agoThis is like saying Jim Crow didn’t detract from America’s achievements in the 1950s, and 60s. Anyone who suffers oppression, just will see these achievements as adding insult to injury.
- trianglem 6y agoThat’s a really good analogy. Hmm I’m torn.
- _dibly 6y agoThey absolutely detract from that achievement. Imagine making an account just to defend concentration camps.
- blackrock 6y agoThe Japanese Concentration Camps of America was pretty cool too. Just saying. Note: I meant this as sarcasm, if you didn’t catch my tone.
- Nginx487 6y ago> "...and rule of law" According to which law kidnappings, tortures and human organs harvesting are being performed?
- libeclipse 6y agoHong Kong is currently enjoying China's "rule of law"
- Nginx487 6y agoRule of law is great, until you find yourself an outlaw just by the fact of being alive.
- jbrun 6y agoI meant rule of law broadly speaking as a human invention, not specific to China. Sorry for the confusion. Pssst.... See Irak, invasion.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- SubiculumCode 6y agoRule of Law? Really? I applaud raising the people from poverty, but rule of law? In an authoritarian sense I suppose, not in a human rights sense though.
- dirtyid 6y agoIt should be noted that Civil Code of the People’s Republic of China finally passed this year after a 50 year effort. https://npcobserver.com/legislation/civil-code/ https://npcobserver.com/legislation/civil-code/ Comprehensive rule-of-law for the plurality for the majority of cases is largely on the horizon. Rule-by-law will of course co-exist for signifiant state matters, but that's a typical balanced arrangement for any competent state.
- jbrun 6y agoClarification: I meant rule of law broadly speaking as a human invention (like science and medicine), not specific to China. Sorry for the confusion.
- dumb1224 6y agoOne of my high school friends has become a judge in my hometown (fulfilling his dream), and they are actually a team specialising in dealing with cases against local authorities[0]. I exchange conversation with him about all kinds of societal issues. I don't know how it can represent everywhere in China but I understand that the legal system has improved massively comparing with decades ago. In major cities most civil cases are ruled by law and working quite well. You can have any opinion you like but I find people completely dismissing a working legal system in China is a bit silly. [0]https://zj.zjol.com.cn/red_boat.html?id=100995604 https://zj.zjol.com.cn/red_boat.html?id=100995604
- brnt 6y agoThere is no separation of powers in China and therefore there is no rule of law. In theory the Party's congress could enforce a defacto independent judiciary, but the evidence is of course that they don't, they are the biggest theatrical production not called that. If that wasn't enough you could trivially look up how many lawyers end up imprisoned or worse. It's not even a bit silly to argue China has anything near a working legal system, it absolutely doesn't.
- dumb1224 6y agoI'm talking about lower courts such as county/city courts that deal with all local level proceedings. They function just as English magistrates/county courts. I'm not sure how the separation of power has anything to do with these local judiciary. If you talk about corruption that's a different issue. For me if these courts are exercising their judicial power legally and properly then we at least have a working civil legal system (not 'none'). There are unfair cases with international concerns but it's not unique to China. I don't think a majority of the local courts in China are malfunctioning or abusing power. If you have evidence to back your claim up I'm happy to read that.
- ga6840 6y agoSo far, I live most of the life in China, IMHO, the root of our previous poverty is arrogance and one man in power (see Mao's policy which had led nation wide famine just because he want to surpass US in a short time), and that left us fall behind the world economically. And the latter so-called "lifted out of poverty" (a oftenly used propaganda tune in Chinese spokesmen to refute others' human rights infringement blame) is nothing but opening up the nation and letting our hardworking people to make products for the world (mostly in downstream application wise products, even nowadays, you see huge Chinese tech companies all cannot live w/o Github, btw, that's why government doesn't block github). Which is seen by me just recovering those years we had losing in politics and culture revolution.
- baybal2 6y agoI don't think most of party member even know what github is.
- ga6840 6y agoYou should not underestimate CCP, remember they initiated a large scale DDoS attack targeting github? And they blocked gist but not github.
- hmmmlife 6y ago>So far, I live most of the life in China, IMHO, the root of our previous poverty is arrogance and one man in power (see Mao's policy which had led nation wide famine just because he want to surpass US in a short time How do you explain Poverty of India then? It doesn't suffer from one person in power. India and China were roughly equal in population and GDP if you go back in time before the start of the British empire Lifting that many people out of poverty is nothing sort of a miracle
- hkmaxpro 6y ago> India and China were roughly equal in population and GDP if you go back in time before the start of the British empire Any source for your claims? The truth: India population in 1800: 169 million [0] China population in 1800: 322 million (nearly double India’s) As for GDP: China’s GDP (PPP) per capita in 1800: $316K [1] India’s GDP (PPP) per capita in 1800: $177K Note this is per capita. Factoring in the population difference, China’s overall GDP (PPP) was almost 4 times that of India. Hardly “roughly equal”. I’m using 1800 as a reference year since it’s easier to find data for it. And GDP (PPP) in 1980 (IMF estimates): [2] China’s GDP (PPP) in 1980: $305K India’s GDP (PPP) in 1980: $381K India’s GDP in 1980 actually surpassed China: 4-5 times growth compared to China! (from 1800 to 1980) This proves the grandparent comment that “IMHO, the root of our previous poverty is arrogance and one man in power (see Mao's policy which had led nation wide famine just because he want to surpass US in a short time”. India’s population growth nearly doubles China’s (from 1800 to now) . Not surprising that, on average, more Indians are poorer than Chinese. [0] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-population-race-a-300-year-look-at-china-vs-india/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-population-race-a-300-y... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-2nqd6-ZXg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-2nqd6-ZXg [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_past_and_projected_GDP_(PPP) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_past_and_...
- baybal2 6y ago> I cannot speak to these specific villages, but the amount of people lifted out of poverty in China in the last 50 years is probably one of the greatest achievements in human history And you forget to say that the amount of people verged into absolute poverty by CPC is also the biggest shame of human history. Nowhere else in history few hundred million people verge forcibly degraded back into stone age out of somewhat moderately industrialised economy. Chinese people have nothing to thank communists for. Any opinion differing from this is preposterous.
- blackrock 6y agoYou don’t think the British and the Americans had any blame for this? For why China was so poor, and had to dig themselves out of a hole in the ground? After all, the criminal British Empire made their fortunes, by shoving opium down the throats of the Chinese for 100 freaking years! And then Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who never had a job his entire life, and just one day became the American president, well, where did his family get their money from? Yes, that’s right. Opium. The Delano’s were also the biggest American drug smugglers during the opium era. And yes, when the Americans were talking about trading success with the Asians, they were specifically referring to opium, but they were too ashamed to admit it. The Chinese opium era was the greatest theft, and the greatest transfer of wealth in human history! Google it man. Educate yourself about the sins of the British and American empires. At least after the CPC and Mao came into power in China, they finally eliminated the opium scourge, and kicked out the British dickheads from their country (except for Hong Kong).
- baybal2 6y ago> At least after the CPC and Mao came into power in China, they finally eliminated the opium scourge, and kicked out the British dickheads from their country (except for Hong Kong). And then, he killed, and starved 60m of his countrymen. How many English killed, and how many Mao killed. I feel, you are under influence of Maoism.
- blackrock 6y ago
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- joemazerino 6y agoA great achievement overshadowed by it's execution. Achievements in a authoritarianism system are not that interesting.
- lowdose 6y ago> one of the greatest achievements in human history How much has the one child policy contributed to this?
- coupdejarnac 6y agoI've lived in China too, and you've definitely drunk the koolaid.