5 ms·

Vegans More Likely to Break Bones Than Meat Eaters, Study Finds

27 points by oedmarap 6y ago

chefkoch 6y ago
It would be interesting how vegeterians compare to vegans and meat / fish eaters.
- SomeoneFromCA 6y ago
  For the most of people, we, vegetarians are the same as vegans. So the either thinks that vegans are vegetarians or vice versa.
hirundo 6y ago
"We found that some of these nutrients, which can have implications in neurologic disorders, anemia, bone strength and other health concerns, can be deficient in poorly planned vegan diets.... Vegans may be at increased risk of deficiencies in vitamin B12, iron, calcium, vitamin D, omega-3 fatty acids and protein." Fields,H.,Ruddy, B., Wallace, M. R., Shah A., Millstine, D., & Marks, L. (2016). How to monitor and advise vegans to ensure adequate nutrient intake. The Journal of the American Osteopathic Association, 116(2), 96. doi:10.7556/jaoa.2016.022
- voisin 6y ago
  “Poorly planned vegan diets” is key. Oreos are vegan. Being vegan doesn’t necessarily meant you eat a lot of fruit and vegetables and pulses and nuts and seeds. As a “vegan” I prefer the term Whole Food, Plant Based, which at least avoids the Oreos and other manufactured crap that suffers from the same deficiencies as non-vegan manufactured crap.
dx87 6y ago
I wonder if it could be caused by them being more health concious and doing physical activities that increase the risk of injury. The article even mentions that it could be because they have a lower BMI, so their bones don't have as much of a fat cushion to absorb impacts.
makerofspoons 6y ago
What's surprising about this is soy, greens, and legumes are all naturally rich in calcium. Fortunately I've yet to find a vegan multivitamin that doesn't have calcium and most people I know are taking one these days for Vitamin B12. At the same time I am curious what other factors for bone health besides dietary calcium a vegan might be deficient in.
- wmil 6y ago
  The article mentions BMI. Which makes sense, muscle and fat mass will cushion impacts.
- abstractbarista 6y ago
  Unfortunately, I've realized there are two types of vegans. Vegans, who know this and stick to well-rounded nutritional diets. And then "vegans", who I would grossly summarize as "obtains 1/3 of every day's calories from potato chips". The former group have figured it out, but I worry for the latter group.
  - voisin 6y ago
    “Whole Food, Plant Based” for the win! We need to jettison terms like Vegan which are too watered down to mean anything and politicized enough that they manage to divide rather than unite toward a goal of overall health improvement.
- Knufen 6y ago
  An interesting factor often overlooked in both the vegan and vegetarian community is bioavailability. So despite soy, greens and legumes being rich in calcium, the calcium might not be available for the body to use.
- mizzack 6y ago
  Vitamin K2 is critical to bone health and most/best forms of it (MK-4) are found in organ meat and fermented dairy. There are supplements derived from natto that are vegan friendly, but in the less desirable MK-7 form.
OneGuy123 6y ago
The issue is that there are 500 different kinds of vegeteriansism/veganism/omnivorism/carnivorism. So if a certain person eats a slighty different variant across his lifetime you could easily have one person become deficient in X but the other one won't even though they both follow "roughly" the same diet (eg vegan). Also the extremists in each diet camp are the loudest ones always, and those extemists will be the last to see the forest for the trees (eg how a slight variation could be beneficial). In general no one knows what the best diet is. Up until ~100 years ago we just needed food to SURVIVE. Now the question becomes: once we have all food available 24/7: which is the best food to THRIVE on? The body isn't that good when it comes to detecting this, eg if we'd let the body do its thing it would just eat cookies all day long..
- leobabauta 6y ago
  For a lot of vegans, the question isn’t so much what diet is best to thrive on (it’s clear that humans can thrive on a lot of diets), but rather, “What diet is most compassionate.”
  - voisin 6y ago
    Off topic but I noticed your name and wanted to say I am a huge fan of Zen Habits! You are making the world a better place. Thank you!
  - disown 6y ago
    > (it’s clear that humans can thrive on a lot of diets) There is only 1 diet that humans can thrive on - the omnivore diet. Nobody thrives under veganism or carnivorism. Human beings can barely subsist on an industrialized vegan diet as it is. > but rather, “What diet is most compassionate.” No sane person who was "compassionate" would choose a vegan diet. A bowl of salad has more dead animal parts than a plate of steak. In order of compassion, the most compassionate diet is the hunter gatherer diet. You take from nature what nature provides. The second most compassionate is the homestead diet. Raise and eat what you grow. The third compassionate diet is the modern industrialized omnivore diet. The the most cruel and absolutely worst diet is the vegan diet. Not only is it unnatural to humans, a vegan diet requires globalization and the destruction of fertile rich biodiverse lands to grow plants for human consumption. Not only that, you still require processed pills to supplement the unnatural vegan diet. Not only is the vegan diet cruel to animals, it's cruel to the environment and cruel to humans. You can't grow avocados, almonds, bananas, etc in south dakota. If we hated a nation of peoples and wanted to them suffer and die off, we'd encourage them to adopt a vegan diet. That's how horrible of a diet veganism is. Nowhere on earth can a human being survive on locally sourced vegan diet. It's why no human society is vegan. What vegans are pathetic people who want to feel superior. It's the new form of white supremacy. It's what privileged people who want to feel better than others virtue signal about. What is veganism? It's just another way for social media addicts to get a "like". If vegans truly cared about animals, environment, etc they wouldn't be vegans, they'd be hunter gatherers. But that's too much work for these lazy bastards. Rather than "What diet is most compassionate.”, veganism is about "What diet will give me the most "likes"". What diet can I leverage for the most virtue signal points. Edit: Also, so many vegans own pets. Pets that require meat. So it's not compassion, it must be something else.
jfengel 6y ago
From the article: Dr. Tong said: "Well-balanced and predominantly plant-based diets can result in improved nutrient levels and have been linked to lower risks of diseases including heart disease and diabetes. Headline (paraphrased): VEGANS BAD!!!!!!!
Rochus 6y ago
Well, maybe the vegans more often ride a bicycle than the other group because they care more about the environment. EDIT: also have a look at the numbers: 65,000 people of which "nearly 2,000" were vegans, so only 3% of the sample. And they found "20 more cases per 1,000 people", so an increase by 2%. The study is likely to have an error margin of more than 3%. And the study "did not account for poor bone health or accidents".
- voisin 6y ago
  Not accounting for accidents seems inexcusable considering the subject matter. Why bother even spending the time writing this up? The downside is that a bunch of click bait “news” sites will pick this up and publish a load of nonsense without context.
  - Rochus 6y ago
    That vegans - in the comparison to a conventional nutrition - take less of certain nutrients without food addition, is well-known. One can therefore ask why such a study is necessary. Possibly the chapter "Funding" of the study provides a hint: The work is supported by [...] Wellcome Trust Our Planet Our Health (Livestock, Environment, and People, LEAP 205212/Z/16/Z); see https://www.leap.ox.ac.uk/home https://www.leap.ox.ac.uk/home. EDIT: recently I watched "The Game Changers" (https://gamechangersmovie.com/ https://gamechangersmovie.com/) which shows a rather different view on our nutrition and its relation with health and environment, highly recommended.
FreekNortier 6y ago
Please just don't make the mistake that most people I come into contact with make and lump vegans and vegetarians into the same category. Completely different.
- voisin 6y ago
  This shouldn’t be downvoted. As a vegan it is extremely common to be offered fish or cheese. Travelling in China a few years ago, I ordered through a guide a vegan meal and was surprised to find chicken in it! Best to jettison the terms altogether and focus on Whole Food, Plant Based. Can’t argue fish or cheese or chicken meet that definition!
  - tzs 6y ago
    I saw a poster in an Arby's (fast food restaurant chain specializing in roast beef) that said "Don't Worry, Vegetarians, We Also Have Turkey & Chicken". Here's a photo I found of it [1]. [1] https://foursquare.com/v/arbys/4b849cd7f964a520473e31e3?openPhotoId=53fe61eb498e7e19469a988b https://foursquare.com/v/arbys/4b849cd7f964a520473e31e3?open...
amriksohata 6y ago
causation does not equal correlation, there are various things the study does not cover, for example the people most likely to become vegan are those with health issues so they become vegan to get around digestion issues, inflamation, weight gain etc.. they already have a body that is not in the best condition. then there are the opposite who are super fit and going to be doing athletics and putting themselves more at risk
disown 6y ago
People who eat unnatural and unhealthy diets are more likely to suffer health problems? What's next? People who drink soda all day more likely to develop teeth problems? It's so sad that there are so many deluded vegans rationalizing their unnatural and unhealthy diets just so that they could hold onto their source of virtue signal points. Vegans can virtue signal all they want, but there are a lot more animal parts in a bowl of salad than on a plate of steak. https://www.rd.com/list/foods-secretly-contain-insects/ https://www.rd.com/list/foods-secretly-contain-insects/

27 points by oedmarap 6y ago

chefkoch 6y ago

It would be interesting how vegeterians compare to vegans and meat / fish eaters.

SomeoneFromCA 6y ago
For the most of people, we, vegetarians are the same as vegans. So the either thinks that vegans are vegetarians or vice versa.

hirundo 6y ago

"We found that some of these nutrients, which can have implications in neurologic disorders, anemia, bone strength and other health concerns, can be deficient in poorly planned vegan diets.... Vegans may be at increased risk of deficiencies in vitamin B12, iron, calcium, vitamin D, omega-3 fatty acids and protein." Fields,H.,Ruddy, B., Wallace, M. R., Shah A., Millstine, D., & Marks, L. (2016). How to monitor and advise vegans to ensure adequate nutrient intake. The Journal of the American Osteopathic Association, 116(2), 96. doi:10.7556/jaoa.2016.022

voisin 6y ago
“Poorly planned vegan diets” is key. Oreos are vegan. Being vegan doesn’t necessarily meant you eat a lot of fruit and vegetables and pulses and nuts and seeds. As a “vegan” I prefer the term Whole Food, Plant Based, which at least avoids the Oreos and other manufactured crap that suffers from the same deficiencies as non-vegan manufactured crap.

dx87 6y ago

I wonder if it could be caused by them being more health concious and doing physical activities that increase the risk of injury. The article even mentions that it could be because they have a lower BMI, so their bones don't have as much of a fat cushion to absorb impacts.

makerofspoons 6y ago

What's surprising about this is soy, greens, and legumes are all naturally rich in calcium. Fortunately I've yet to find a vegan multivitamin that doesn't have calcium and most people I know are taking one these days for Vitamin B12. At the same time I am curious what other factors for bone health besides dietary calcium a vegan might be deficient in.

wmil 6y ago
The article mentions BMI. Which makes sense, muscle and fat mass will cushion impacts.
abstractbarista 6y ago
Unfortunately, I've realized there are two types of vegans. Vegans, who know this and stick to well-rounded nutritional diets. And then "vegans", who I would grossly summarize as "obtains 1/3 of every day's calories from potato chips". The former group have figured it out, but I worry for the latter group.
- voisin 6y ago
  “Whole Food, Plant Based” for the win! We need to jettison terms like Vegan which are too watered down to mean anything and politicized enough that they manage to divide rather than unite toward a goal of overall health improvement.
Knufen 6y ago
An interesting factor often overlooked in both the vegan and vegetarian community is bioavailability. So despite soy, greens and legumes being rich in calcium, the calcium might not be available for the body to use.
mizzack 6y ago
Vitamin K2 is critical to bone health and most/best forms of it (MK-4) are found in organ meat and fermented dairy. There are supplements derived from natto that are vegan friendly, but in the less desirable MK-7 form.

OneGuy123 6y ago

The issue is that there are 500 different kinds of vegeteriansism/veganism/omnivorism/carnivorism. So if a certain person eats a slighty different variant across his lifetime you could easily have one person become deficient in X but the other one won't even though they both follow "roughly" the same diet (eg vegan). Also the extremists in each diet camp are the loudest ones always, and those extemists will be the last to see the forest for the trees (eg how a slight variation could be beneficial). In general no one knows what the best diet is. Up until ~100 years ago we just needed food to SURVIVE. Now the question becomes: once we have all food available 24/7: which is the best food to THRIVE on? The body isn't that good when it comes to detecting this, eg if we'd let the body do its thing it would just eat cookies all day long..

leobabauta 6y ago
For a lot of vegans, the question isn’t so much what diet is best to thrive on (it’s clear that humans can thrive on a lot of diets), but rather, “What diet is most compassionate.”
- voisin 6y ago
  Off topic but I noticed your name and wanted to say I am a huge fan of Zen Habits! You are making the world a better place. Thank you!
- disown 6y ago
  > (it’s clear that humans can thrive on a lot of diets) There is only 1 diet that humans can thrive on - the omnivore diet. Nobody thrives under veganism or carnivorism. Human beings can barely subsist on an industrialized vegan diet as it is. > but rather, “What diet is most compassionate.” No sane person who was "compassionate" would choose a vegan diet. A bowl of salad has more dead animal parts than a plate of steak. In order of compassion, the most compassionate diet is the hunter gatherer diet. You take from nature what nature provides. The second most compassionate is the homestead diet. Raise and eat what you grow. The third compassionate diet is the modern industrialized omnivore diet. The the most cruel and absolutely worst diet is the vegan diet. Not only is it unnatural to humans, a vegan diet requires globalization and the destruction of fertile rich biodiverse lands to grow plants for human consumption. Not only that, you still require processed pills to supplement the unnatural vegan diet. Not only is the vegan diet cruel to animals, it's cruel to the environment and cruel to humans. You can't grow avocados, almonds, bananas, etc in south dakota. If we hated a nation of peoples and wanted to them suffer and die off, we'd encourage them to adopt a vegan diet. That's how horrible of a diet veganism is. Nowhere on earth can a human being survive on locally sourced vegan diet. It's why no human society is vegan. What vegans are pathetic people who want to feel superior. It's the new form of white supremacy. It's what privileged people who want to feel better than others virtue signal about. What is veganism? It's just another way for social media addicts to get a "like". If vegans truly cared about animals, environment, etc they wouldn't be vegans, they'd be hunter gatherers. But that's too much work for these lazy bastards. Rather than "What diet is most compassionate.”, veganism is about "What diet will give me the most "likes"". What diet can I leverage for the most virtue signal points. Edit: Also, so many vegans own pets. Pets that require meat. So it's not compassion, it must be something else.

jfengel 6y ago

From the article: Dr. Tong said: "Well-balanced and predominantly plant-based diets can result in improved nutrient levels and have been linked to lower risks of diseases including heart disease and diabetes. Headline (paraphrased): VEGANS BAD!!!!!!!

Rochus 6y ago

Well, maybe the vegans more often ride a bicycle than the other group because they care more about the environment. EDIT: also have a look at the numbers: 65,000 people of which "nearly 2,000" were vegans, so only 3% of the sample. And they found "20 more cases per 1,000 people", so an increase by 2%. The study is likely to have an error margin of more than 3%. And the study "did not account for poor bone health or accidents".

voisin 6y ago
Not accounting for accidents seems inexcusable considering the subject matter. Why bother even spending the time writing this up? The downside is that a bunch of click bait “news” sites will pick this up and publish a load of nonsense without context.
- Rochus 6y ago
  That vegans - in the comparison to a conventional nutrition - take less of certain nutrients without food addition, is well-known. One can therefore ask why such a study is necessary. Possibly the chapter "Funding" of the study provides a hint: The work is supported by [...] Wellcome Trust Our Planet Our Health (Livestock, Environment, and People, LEAP 205212/Z/16/Z); see https://www.leap.ox.ac.uk/home https://www.leap.ox.ac.uk/home. EDIT: recently I watched "The Game Changers" (https://gamechangersmovie.com/ https://gamechangersmovie.com/) which shows a rather different view on our nutrition and its relation with health and environment, highly recommended.

FreekNortier 6y ago

Please just don't make the mistake that most people I come into contact with make and lump vegans and vegetarians into the same category. Completely different.

voisin 6y ago
This shouldn’t be downvoted. As a vegan it is extremely common to be offered fish or cheese. Travelling in China a few years ago, I ordered through a guide a vegan meal and was surprised to find chicken in it! Best to jettison the terms altogether and focus on Whole Food, Plant Based. Can’t argue fish or cheese or chicken meet that definition!
- tzs 6y ago
  I saw a poster in an Arby's (fast food restaurant chain specializing in roast beef) that said "Don't Worry, Vegetarians, We Also Have Turkey & Chicken". Here's a photo I found of it [1]. [1] https://foursquare.com/v/arbys/4b849cd7f964a520473e31e3?openPhotoId=53fe61eb498e7e19469a988b https://foursquare.com/v/arbys/4b849cd7f964a520473e31e3?open...

amriksohata 6y ago

causation does not equal correlation, there are various things the study does not cover, for example the people most likely to become vegan are those with health issues so they become vegan to get around digestion issues, inflamation, weight gain etc.. they already have a body that is not in the best condition. then there are the opposite who are super fit and going to be doing athletics and putting themselves more at risk

disown 6y ago

People who eat unnatural and unhealthy diets are more likely to suffer health problems? What's next? People who drink soda all day more likely to develop teeth problems? It's so sad that there are so many deluded vegans rationalizing their unnatural and unhealthy diets just so that they could hold onto their source of virtue signal points. Vegans can virtue signal all they want, but there are a lot more animal parts in a bowl of salad than on a plate of steak. https://www.rd.com/list/foods-secretly-contain-insects/ https://www.rd.com/list/foods-secretly-contain-insects/