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The difference between the State and the Private Company is that citizens vote for the State, and Legislators (the "paternalizers") are directly installed by th

The difference between the State and the Private Company is that citizens vote for the State, and Legislators (the "paternalizers") are directly installed by the voters. The iPhone buyer does not get a say in the development staff or direction at Apple. My government intends to be "Of the people, for the people, by the people". Imagine if Apple every single year had elections at every level of their company! Vote for your local support representatives. Vote for your local b+m store management. Vote for executive staff. Etc etc. But until Apple does that, there is literally no fair comparison with paternalism in state and private industry.

prawn 6y ago
Aren't you voting with your wallet when you voluntarily buy an Apple product?
- criley2 6y ago
  I am familiar with the saying, however, in this case, voting for government officials and creating a "demand" datapoint in markets by completing a purchase are not synonymous. When we go to the polls, we are literally making decisions about what you call "paternalism". Who should write our laws? Who should manage our criminal justice system? Who should regulate our industries? These are pretty direct decisions to make. But when we go to Best Buy or Apple Store to buy an iDevice, almost all consumer are not making a decision about the "paternalistic" decisions of Apple, who they employ, etc. They are buying a shiny object that makes their brain give them the happy juice. I fear for our society if these two actions become one and the same.
  - prawn 6y ago
    You need to step back one more level from "The iPhone buyer does not get a say" to "The phone buyer does get a say"; buy an iPhone or buy an Android device if you have an issue with their business arrangements. "They are buying a shiny object that makes their brain give them the happy juice." That doesn't sound unlike many voters of all sorts to me!
    - criley2 6y ago
      I personally believe that it is naive to think that Apple cares what consumers think as they have enough money to take $0 from consumers for say 30 years straight and be fine. They are post-capitalist. I understand that in an ideal market, a business has to react to demand. That in many industries, if you don't do what the customer wants, the customer leaves. I do not think Apple operates in that world or by those rules. Apple doesn't care what you think and they don't care if you buy their products. Ironically, the only way you might get Apple to change isn't with your wallet, it's with your government. EU notching wins against Apple bad practices on behalf of Apple's European customers that their wallets never won them.
TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
Elections != democracy. Or even representation. Apple has a certain awareness of public opinion and user mood. It isn't obliged to pay attention to either, and of course it also tries to control both through PR efforts. But if it ignores or irritates its users too much there are financial consequences. Meanwhile you can be sure forums like HN are monitored for sentiment.
- romanoderoma 6y ago
  > But if it ignores or irritates its users too much there are financial consequences. I believe they very much know what their users want and are giving it to them That's why they are so successful. And what their users want is a device to support their paternalism. I've never witnessed so many judgments against elderly or people that are a bit of techno illiterate (a bit is enough) as I have in discussions about Apple. The baseline is always of two types: - they are easy to operate, so even my [insert moms, dads, granpas etc here] can use them - I would never let my [insert moms, dads, granpas etc here] use an open device where they can get viruses that then I have to fix (like fixing something for your family is some kind of punishment, they did it for me repeateadly when I was younger!) And i think it's a bit naive to think that people supporting the idea that Apple knows better are in good faith and are not doing it because they like the control too and to be "influencers" (with many quotes) in their inner circles. I would never think that my parents who raised me and made me what I am are incapable of understanding basic safety rules on the Internet once explained to them (safety rules that anyway protect them from something that don't kill people, it simply kills the battery of the device) > Meanwhile you can be sure forums like HN are monitored for sentiment. I'm sure they do. One interesting other thing that we can be sure and I didn't think possible is that there are people monitoring this forums as well with enough karma to downvote, that not only downvote your posts in a discussion, but go back to yout history and downvote older posts as well. It just happened to me, I had posts from yesterday and two days ago downvoted right now by the same people that downvoted me in this thread. I don't know if HN can do something about it or not, but for starter disallowing voting on older submissions that users have not shown interest on could help (it should be easy to check which submissions users have opened, when, how many times and for how long to establish if they are genuinely interested in the topic)

prawn 6y ago

Aren't you voting with your wallet when you voluntarily buy an Apple product?

criley2 6y ago
I am familiar with the saying, however, in this case, voting for government officials and creating a "demand" datapoint in markets by completing a purchase are not synonymous. When we go to the polls, we are literally making decisions about what you call "paternalism". Who should write our laws? Who should manage our criminal justice system? Who should regulate our industries? These are pretty direct decisions to make. But when we go to Best Buy or Apple Store to buy an iDevice, almost all consumer are not making a decision about the "paternalistic" decisions of Apple, who they employ, etc. They are buying a shiny object that makes their brain give them the happy juice. I fear for our society if these two actions become one and the same.
- prawn 6y ago
  You need to step back one more level from "The iPhone buyer does not get a say" to "The phone buyer does get a say"; buy an iPhone or buy an Android device if you have an issue with their business arrangements. "They are buying a shiny object that makes their brain give them the happy juice." That doesn't sound unlike many voters of all sorts to me!
  - criley2 6y ago
    I personally believe that it is naive to think that Apple cares what consumers think as they have enough money to take $0 from consumers for say 30 years straight and be fine. They are post-capitalist. I understand that in an ideal market, a business has to react to demand. That in many industries, if you don't do what the customer wants, the customer leaves. I do not think Apple operates in that world or by those rules. Apple doesn't care what you think and they don't care if you buy their products. Ironically, the only way you might get Apple to change isn't with your wallet, it's with your government. EU notching wins against Apple bad practices on behalf of Apple's European customers that their wallets never won them.

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago

Elections != democracy. Or even representation. Apple has a certain awareness of public opinion and user mood. It isn't obliged to pay attention to either, and of course it also tries to control both through PR efforts. But if it ignores or irritates its users too much there are financial consequences. Meanwhile you can be sure forums like HN are monitored for sentiment.

romanoderoma 6y ago
> But if it ignores or irritates its users too much there are financial consequences. I believe they very much know what their users want and are giving it to them That's why they are so successful. And what their users want is a device to support their paternalism. I've never witnessed so many judgments against elderly or people that are a bit of techno illiterate (a bit is enough) as I have in discussions about Apple. The baseline is always of two types: - they are easy to operate, so even my [insert moms, dads, granpas etc here] can use them - I would never let my [insert moms, dads, granpas etc here] use an open device where they can get viruses that then I have to fix (like fixing something for your family is some kind of punishment, they did it for me repeateadly when I was younger!) And i think it's a bit naive to think that people supporting the idea that Apple knows better are in good faith and are not doing it because they like the control too and to be "influencers" (with many quotes) in their inner circles. I would never think that my parents who raised me and made me what I am are incapable of understanding basic safety rules on the Internet once explained to them (safety rules that anyway protect them from something that don't kill people, it simply kills the battery of the device) > Meanwhile you can be sure forums like HN are monitored for sentiment. I'm sure they do. One interesting other thing that we can be sure and I didn't think possible is that there are people monitoring this forums as well with enough karma to downvote, that not only downvote your posts in a discussion, but go back to yout history and downvote older posts as well. It just happened to me, I had posts from yesterday and two days ago downvoted right now by the same people that downvoted me in this thread. I don't know if HN can do something about it or not, but for starter disallowing voting on older submissions that users have not shown interest on could help (it should be easy to check which submissions users have opened, when, how many times and for how long to establish if they are genuinely interested in the topic)