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The Ben Franklin quote that "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." seems part

The Ben Franklin quote that "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." seems particularly apt, here. Rhetorically: how much do you care about privacy as an issue? Because this is the trade you're making, and you should do it with your eyes open. I personally don't think the trade-off is worth it, but I also really really hope I'm wrong. My biggest cause for concern is the long history of the USG collaborating with megacorporations to control people. It's super scary as we reach the point with technology where every person can be identified fully, and is essentially "always on". You can argue that you can unplug, but the cost of that option is so high when society is dependent on it that it rapidly becomes impractical.

coldtea 6y ago
>The Ben Franklin quote that "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." seems particularly apt, here. On the other hand, I'm a European, could not care less for Ben Franklin (or the Founding Fathers for that matter), and don't consider them some great sages of the centuries. Nor is their word gospel. I say that because I see such supposed "deep" quotes all the time, as if a simplistic proverb-like statement settles a complex real world situation... Not to mention that the quote is used out of context [1]. Safety is always temporary -- there are no long term guarantees in history. And we all give up all kinds of essential liberties for safety - that's part of living in a society. We pay taxes, we allow ourselves to be taken to prison if we break one of 1000000 laws, etc. [1] https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famous-liberty-safety-quote-lost-its-context-in-21st-century#:~:text=Benjamin%20Franklin%20once%20said%3A%20%22Those,and%20concerns%20about%20government%20surveillance https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famou....
- appleflaxen 6y ago
  I wasn't making any assumptions about your nationality; it seems irrelevant regarding the truth or falsity of an idea. Like different countries responding to COVID: truth doesn't really care how special the US/Sweden/Japan/wherever thinks they are. I read your link but I don't understand the point that the Brookings institution is trying to make about the context of the quote. I'm open minded, but miss the point they are making; perhaps because it's a transcribed interview. Nevertheless: quotes are nice because they distill an idea down to an elemental form. They might be wise or they might be dumb, but the simple idea expressed in the phrase (regardless of who uttered it, or what they meant at the time) seems wise to me as we consider the tradeoffs between a walled garden vis-a-vis privacy.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >I wasn't making any assumptions about your nationality; it seems irrelevant regarding the truth or falsity of an idea. Yes, but it's not irrelevant regarding to the propensity of certain nationals to consider some ideas true (or "consider them to be self-evident" - see what I did here?), and to put them forward at any opportunity. >Nevertheless: quotes are nice because they distill an idea down to an elemental form. They might be wise or they might be dumb, but the simple idea expressed in the phrase (regardless of who uttered it, or what they meant at the time) seems wise to me as we consider the tradeoffs between a walled garden vis-a-vis privacy. Well, the idea is: never trade essential liberties for temporary safety, you'll lose both. To which I answer: safety is always temporary, what's an "essential libery" is debatable, and we must voluntarily (and ocassionally involuntarily) give up essential liberties all the time to get the temporary safety and other goodies afforded by society.

coldtea 6y ago

>The Ben Franklin quote that "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." seems particularly apt, here. On the other hand, I'm a European, could not care less for Ben Franklin (or the Founding Fathers for that matter), and don't consider them some great sages of the centuries. Nor is their word gospel. I say that because I see such supposed "deep" quotes all the time, as if a simplistic proverb-like statement settles a complex real world situation... Not to mention that the quote is used out of context [1]. Safety is always temporary -- there are no long term guarantees in history. And we all give up all kinds of essential liberties for safety - that's part of living in a society. We pay taxes, we allow ourselves to be taken to prison if we break one of 1000000 laws, etc. [1] https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famous-liberty-safety-quote-lost-its-context-in-21st-century#:~:text=Benjamin%20Franklin%20once%20said%3A%20%22Those,and%20concerns%20about%20government%20surveillance https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famou....

appleflaxen 6y ago
I wasn't making any assumptions about your nationality; it seems irrelevant regarding the truth or falsity of an idea. Like different countries responding to COVID: truth doesn't really care how special the US/Sweden/Japan/wherever thinks they are. I read your link but I don't understand the point that the Brookings institution is trying to make about the context of the quote. I'm open minded, but miss the point they are making; perhaps because it's a transcribed interview. Nevertheless: quotes are nice because they distill an idea down to an elemental form. They might be wise or they might be dumb, but the simple idea expressed in the phrase (regardless of who uttered it, or what they meant at the time) seems wise to me as we consider the tradeoffs between a walled garden vis-a-vis privacy.
- coldtea 6y ago
  >I wasn't making any assumptions about your nationality; it seems irrelevant regarding the truth or falsity of an idea. Yes, but it's not irrelevant regarding to the propensity of certain nationals to consider some ideas true (or "consider them to be self-evident" - see what I did here?), and to put them forward at any opportunity. >Nevertheless: quotes are nice because they distill an idea down to an elemental form. They might be wise or they might be dumb, but the simple idea expressed in the phrase (regardless of who uttered it, or what they meant at the time) seems wise to me as we consider the tradeoffs between a walled garden vis-a-vis privacy. Well, the idea is: never trade essential liberties for temporary safety, you'll lose both. To which I answer: safety is always temporary, what's an "essential libery" is debatable, and we must voluntarily (and ocassionally involuntarily) give up essential liberties all the time to get the temporary safety and other goodies afforded by society.