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"The Devil's Chessboard" and "The Mighty Wurlitzer" are the two books I'm most familiar with on this topic, but I'd be curious to hear any specific recommendati

"The Devil's Chessboard" and "The Mighty Wurlitzer" are the two books I'm most familiar with on this topic, but I'd be curious to hear any specific recommendations you have as well.

3pt14159 6y ago
Not the person you are responding to, but I liked Fair Game and The Billion Dollar spy. Cyberspies was also decent, but it's less exciting and more technical. I don't share arminiusreturns' view on the intelligence community. I know there are the black site psychos, but most of the people I've met in the IC care deeply about the rule of law and making the world safe for all of us. But they are right that things truly are quite compartmentalized. And yes, when the USA said to Snowden "we won't torture you if you return" that sent chills down my spine. It shouldn't have been necessary to say that.
- realce 6y ago
  > but most of the people I've met in the IC care deeply about the rule of law and making the world safe for all of us. I don't mean to twist your words, but that's what all suppliers of State power want. It doesn't make the outcomes good or moral, it doesn't mean the will of the population is actually adhered to. "Making the world safe for all of us" is a simple paradox of Asimov-level complexity and outcome.
  - 3pt14159 6y ago
    Well, I respectively disagree. Some actors want money, some want power. What I was trying to convey was that in the west, most actors want safety and prosperity and peace. For example, these people from my country talk at length about the nitty gritty legal aspects of national security related law and how it is practiced by the Canadian intelligence community: https://www.intrepidpodcast.com/podcast https://www.intrepidpodcast.com/podcast Or the overworked RCMP officer I met that spent most of his time trying to find kids being trafficked for pornography. Or the guys I met in the US that were working on arms control of nuclear weapons. These people aren't using their considerable skills to make money, which they could clearly do on Wall St. They're focussed on making the world better and safer. These people literally work on arms control for WMDs and I fail to see how you can dismiss their efforts with a straight face.
arminiusreturns 6y ago
Talbot's book is top notch, if you've read it you have a huge head start. I haven't read "The Mighty Wurlitzer", so thank you for the addition to the "to read" list. I would probably suggest Fletcher Prouty's "The Secret Team: The CIA and Its Allies in Control of the United States and the World". Another more superficial but still useful one is "The Brothers". To understand the OSS-MI6 connection, I like to suggest Carrol Quigleys "The Anglo-American Establishment", and for particulars about things you devolve into certain authors, the list is long, but an example would be Doug Valentine's work about Operation Phoenix. For a more unorthodox look into the Bush connection, the Unauthorized Biography of George Bush by Webster Tarpley is quite illuminating about the Brown Brothers Harriman stuff. The point I made previously still stands though. Some of these are really good books (and we just barely scratched the surface) but I have found that there is no "one great book" that explains the history or current state of things. I tend to lean these days towards thinking much of the abuses are due to the 1947 NatSec act. For the other commenter, I would like to specify that my point is that the compartmentalization is abused just to that purpose (so that the middle men who have good intentions can be used in ways beyond their understanding that they would not like if they understood), combined with a top down series of compromise operations... that's the main weakness in such a compartmentalized but centralized structure.
- AndrewBissell 6y ago
  Thanks! I can definitely sympathize with your point about people "retreating into ignorant bliss in response." Not so easy to admit that in many ways we already live in the 'Man in the High Castle' timeline!

"The Devil's Chessboard" and "The Mighty Wurlitzer" are the two books I'm most familiar with on this topic, but I'd be curious to hear any specific recommendations you have as well.

3pt14159 6y ago

Not the person you are responding to, but I liked Fair Game and The Billion Dollar spy. Cyberspies was also decent, but it's less exciting and more technical. I don't share arminiusreturns' view on the intelligence community. I know there are the black site psychos, but most of the people I've met in the IC care deeply about the rule of law and making the world safe for all of us. But they are right that things truly are quite compartmentalized. And yes, when the USA said to Snowden "we won't torture you if you return" that sent chills down my spine. It shouldn't have been necessary to say that.

realce 6y ago
> but most of the people I've met in the IC care deeply about the rule of law and making the world safe for all of us. I don't mean to twist your words, but that's what all suppliers of State power want. It doesn't make the outcomes good or moral, it doesn't mean the will of the population is actually adhered to. "Making the world safe for all of us" is a simple paradox of Asimov-level complexity and outcome.
- 3pt14159 6y ago
  Well, I respectively disagree. Some actors want money, some want power. What I was trying to convey was that in the west, most actors want safety and prosperity and peace. For example, these people from my country talk at length about the nitty gritty legal aspects of national security related law and how it is practiced by the Canadian intelligence community: https://www.intrepidpodcast.com/podcast https://www.intrepidpodcast.com/podcast Or the overworked RCMP officer I met that spent most of his time trying to find kids being trafficked for pornography. Or the guys I met in the US that were working on arms control of nuclear weapons. These people aren't using their considerable skills to make money, which they could clearly do on Wall St. They're focussed on making the world better and safer. These people literally work on arms control for WMDs and I fail to see how you can dismiss their efforts with a straight face.

arminiusreturns 6y ago

Talbot's book is top notch, if you've read it you have a huge head start. I haven't read "The Mighty Wurlitzer", so thank you for the addition to the "to read" list. I would probably suggest Fletcher Prouty's "The Secret Team: The CIA and Its Allies in Control of the United States and the World". Another more superficial but still useful one is "The Brothers". To understand the OSS-MI6 connection, I like to suggest Carrol Quigleys "The Anglo-American Establishment", and for particulars about things you devolve into certain authors, the list is long, but an example would be Doug Valentine's work about Operation Phoenix. For a more unorthodox look into the Bush connection, the Unauthorized Biography of George Bush by Webster Tarpley is quite illuminating about the Brown Brothers Harriman stuff. The point I made previously still stands though. Some of these are really good books (and we just barely scratched the surface) but I have found that there is no "one great book" that explains the history or current state of things. I tend to lean these days towards thinking much of the abuses are due to the 1947 NatSec act. For the other commenter, I would like to specify that my point is that the compartmentalization is abused just to that purpose (so that the middle men who have good intentions can be used in ways beyond their understanding that they would not like if they understood), combined with a top down series of compromise operations... that's the main weakness in such a compartmentalized but centralized structure.

AndrewBissell 6y ago
Thanks! I can definitely sympathize with your point about people "retreating into ignorant bliss in response." Not so easy to admit that in many ways we already live in the 'Man in the High Castle' timeline!