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Here we go with the tech guilt/savior complex. Tech people in SF have not been terrible neighbors. People who shit in the street are terrible neighbors. People

Here we go with the tech guilt/savior complex. Tech people in SF have not been terrible neighbors. People who shit in the street are terrible neighbors. People who steal bikes and smash car windows are terrible neighbors. People who do drugs in the open and leave needles on the ground are terrible neighbors. Techies are basically the ideal denizens of a city. Young, educated, well-paid, law-abiding people. You could hardly ask for a better group to populate a city.

carapace 6y ago
> Here we go with the tech guilt/savior complex. The what now? > Tech people in SF have not been terrible neighbors. Individually no, collectively yes. > People who shit in the street are terrible neighbors. I would agree with that if it was possible to shit in a bathroom downtown, it's hella hard to shit downtown without $$$ in your pocket. > People who steal bikes and smash car windows are terrible neighbors. Yes. > People who do drugs in the open and leave needles on the ground are terrible neighbors. Drug addicts are a complex problem. I agree that we shouldn't have the open rampant drug abuse going on that we see downtown. I've seen guys shooting up in the metro staircase. It's bad. It's not "terrible neighbors" who just happen to want to smoke crack in the streets though, and it's not isolated from the economic shifts that have rocked the city since ~2001-ish. > Techies are basically the ideal denizens of a city. Young, educated, well-paid, law-abiding people. You could hardly ask for a better group to populate a city. Is that the tech guilt/savior complex again? The problem is they aren't populating an empty shell! They come as a displacing wave of invaders, made all the more insufferable because they're convinced that they're God's gift to the world at a subconscious level.
- sammalloy 6y ago
  > They come as a displacing wave of invaders This has been happening continuously since San Francisco was first settled by Spanish explorers and soldiers in 1776, displacing the Ohlone peoples who lived there. There are SF history articles in the library that go into great detail about the shift in neighborhood demographics since the initial Gold Rush. When I first perused the source material back in the 1990s, I learned about the hidden history of San Francisco. Of particular note, was the Irish and Polish presence in the Mission in the early to mid-twentieth century, and the Scandinavian wave to Upper Market around the same time. These waves of ethnic migration to the city influenced its development, brought people with new skills and culture, and greatly contributed to the multicolored tapestry of San Francisco. Many of these groups had organized meeting places and interest groups which directly benefited their districts, and they performed charitable work to improve the city in which they lived.
  - carapace 6y ago
    Oh yes, in the grand sweep of things, this is all business as usual, eh? Points for knowing the history. FWIW, the Ohlone people still live here.
- sershe 6y ago
  What really boggles my mind (I 100% agree with GP and left SF in part because of the actual bad neighbors) is that activists in SF harp on trump and call tech "invaders" or not welcome or whatever and don't see the irony. The easiest way to shut up an SF-based activist or NIMBY ranting against tech invasion is to say smth like "it sounds like you are saying you want to keep them out, perhaps build that wall?" :D
  - carapace 6y ago
    It's an imperfect metaphor. In SF it would be like the "invaders" are bringing the wealth with them but not sharing it; while in the larger context the "invaders" are coming in from an effectively failed state in order to take advantage of the wealth in the "invaded" state. But yeah, in general, by the time you're a capital-A "Activist" you're not well able to see your own foibles and ironies. The mote in your neighbor's eye occludes the plank in your own, eh?
    - triceratops 6y ago
      > In SF it would be like the "invaders" are bringing the wealth with them but not sharing it How would they share it though? The entire Bay Area is utterly resistant to anything that might change "neighborhood character" or "harm property prices". Prop 13 has caused housing development to ossify, causing widespread homelessness and misery, but residents find it convenient to blame a tiny fraction of the workforce for all their problems.
      - carapace 6y ago
        I don't think there's a realistic way for the tech wealth to be shared, I'm just explaining where the resentment comes from. Most of the really cool folk in the city have already bounced (to the East Bay of further afield) so you're left with the desperate, the deeply committed, etc.
  - Nasrudith 6y ago
    Really I have come to the conclusion that "localism" is essentially the socially acceptable outlet for left leaning xenophobic personalities. Racism, sexism, and homophobia are a path to be a pariah but outsiders to "the local community" are fair game as an outgroup and a place their anxieties and anger on an other outgroup.
- 9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
  Reading posts like these make me wonder as an European what is the difference between this and the rural maga types? Both complaining about invaders taking their jobs, homes, replacing culture, bringing misery.
  - newfriend 6y ago
    One is complaining about rich people moving in and increasing property values. And the other is complaining about illegal aliens breaking the law by being here illegally, while either committing fraud by using someone's SSN or avoiding paying tax entirely, often unable to speak English, increasing competition for unskilled labor (construction, landscaping, cooks, dishwashers, etc.), putting downward pressure on wages of the working class. One is lamenting supply and demand, and the is other upset about blatant illegality that has gone on for decades.
    - triceratops 6y ago
      > often unable to speak English Friendly reminder: the US does not have a national or official language.[1] They only harm themselves by not knowing English and usually they try very hard to learn so as to not be at a disadvantage. > while either committing fraud by using someone's SSN or avoiding paying tax entirely If they use someone else's SSN, the payroll taxes are still being paid, so the taxpayer isn't losing out. In fact, it's free money for the SSA because they'll never have to pay out benefits to most of these people later. (Would you take the risk of claiming Social Security if you were here illegally?) If they get paid cash under the table, there are two parties acting illegally - the employer is also to blame (and possibly, laundering money, which is an additional crime). I don't see much vitriol directed against employers though. I hear "Build the wall" but never "Shut them down" (for employers who illegally employ undocumented workers). 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_States#Official_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_States...
      - newfriend 6y ago
        > Friendly reminder: the US does not have a national or official language.[1] English is the de facto language of the US. All government business is done in English. Of course you know this, but are merely stating this as some kind of "gotcha". There is no reason for the US to take anyone who doesn't speak English in this day and age, not with a massive backlog of educated, English-speaking, law-abiding people waiting in the queue. > They only harm themselves by not knowing English and usually they try very hard to learn so as to not be at a disadvantage. If only they put as much effort into following the laws of this country. > If they use someone else's SSN, the payroll taxes are still being paid, so the taxpayer isn't losing out. In fact, it's free money for the SSA because they'll never have to pay out benefits to most of these people later. (Would you take the risk of claiming Social Security if you were here illegally?) They are criminals committing fraud. It's not a victimless crime. What do you think happens to the people who have their SSNs used? > If they get paid cash under the table, there are two parties acting illegally - the employer is also to blame (and possibly, laundering money, which is an additional crime). I don't see much vitriol directed against employers though. Then you may hear it right now, businesses that knowingly employ illegal aliens should be prosecuted for breaking the law. > I hear "Build the wall" but never "Shut them down" (for employers who illegally employ undocumented workers). Unfortunately in our current two-party system, the options are "Build the wall" or "Give them all free health care, and a path to citizenship".
TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
If that were true, where do the terrible neighbours come from? Perhaps tech corporates may have something to do with the reasons these people are trying to survive on the street? I wouldn't blame FAANG specifically, because of course the problem is more complex than that. But there's a certain complacency involved in being young, educated, and in-demand - which can be knocked out of you far more easily than you might think when the next bust happens and suddenly you are the one on the street being told you're a bad neighbour. This is not hyperbole. It has happened in every dot com recession, and it will happen to people you know - possibly even to you - in the next one.

carapace 6y ago

> Here we go with the tech guilt/savior complex. The what now? > Tech people in SF have not been terrible neighbors. Individually no, collectively yes. > People who shit in the street are terrible neighbors. I would agree with that if it was possible to shit in a bathroom downtown, it's hella hard to shit downtown without $$$ in your pocket. > People who steal bikes and smash car windows are terrible neighbors. Yes. > People who do drugs in the open and leave needles on the ground are terrible neighbors. Drug addicts are a complex problem. I agree that we shouldn't have the open rampant drug abuse going on that we see downtown. I've seen guys shooting up in the metro staircase. It's bad. It's not "terrible neighbors" who just happen to want to smoke crack in the streets though, and it's not isolated from the economic shifts that have rocked the city since ~2001-ish. > Techies are basically the ideal denizens of a city. Young, educated, well-paid, law-abiding people. You could hardly ask for a better group to populate a city. Is that the tech guilt/savior complex again? The problem is they aren't populating an empty shell! They come as a displacing wave of invaders, made all the more insufferable because they're convinced that they're God's gift to the world at a subconscious level.

sammalloy 6y ago
> They come as a displacing wave of invaders This has been happening continuously since San Francisco was first settled by Spanish explorers and soldiers in 1776, displacing the Ohlone peoples who lived there. There are SF history articles in the library that go into great detail about the shift in neighborhood demographics since the initial Gold Rush. When I first perused the source material back in the 1990s, I learned about the hidden history of San Francisco. Of particular note, was the Irish and Polish presence in the Mission in the early to mid-twentieth century, and the Scandinavian wave to Upper Market around the same time. These waves of ethnic migration to the city influenced its development, brought people with new skills and culture, and greatly contributed to the multicolored tapestry of San Francisco. Many of these groups had organized meeting places and interest groups which directly benefited their districts, and they performed charitable work to improve the city in which they lived.
- carapace 6y ago
  Oh yes, in the grand sweep of things, this is all business as usual, eh? Points for knowing the history. FWIW, the Ohlone people still live here.
sershe 6y ago
What really boggles my mind (I 100% agree with GP and left SF in part because of the actual bad neighbors) is that activists in SF harp on trump and call tech "invaders" or not welcome or whatever and don't see the irony. The easiest way to shut up an SF-based activist or NIMBY ranting against tech invasion is to say smth like "it sounds like you are saying you want to keep them out, perhaps build that wall?" :D
- carapace 6y ago
  It's an imperfect metaphor. In SF it would be like the "invaders" are bringing the wealth with them but not sharing it; while in the larger context the "invaders" are coming in from an effectively failed state in order to take advantage of the wealth in the "invaded" state. But yeah, in general, by the time you're a capital-A "Activist" you're not well able to see your own foibles and ironies. The mote in your neighbor's eye occludes the plank in your own, eh?
  - triceratops 6y ago
    > In SF it would be like the "invaders" are bringing the wealth with them but not sharing it How would they share it though? The entire Bay Area is utterly resistant to anything that might change "neighborhood character" or "harm property prices". Prop 13 has caused housing development to ossify, causing widespread homelessness and misery, but residents find it convenient to blame a tiny fraction of the workforce for all their problems.
    - carapace 6y ago
      I don't think there's a realistic way for the tech wealth to be shared, I'm just explaining where the resentment comes from. Most of the really cool folk in the city have already bounced (to the East Bay of further afield) so you're left with the desperate, the deeply committed, etc.
- Nasrudith 6y ago
  Really I have come to the conclusion that "localism" is essentially the socially acceptable outlet for left leaning xenophobic personalities. Racism, sexism, and homophobia are a path to be a pariah but outsiders to "the local community" are fair game as an outgroup and a place their anxieties and anger on an other outgroup.
9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
Reading posts like these make me wonder as an European what is the difference between this and the rural maga types? Both complaining about invaders taking their jobs, homes, replacing culture, bringing misery.
- newfriend 6y ago
  One is complaining about rich people moving in and increasing property values. And the other is complaining about illegal aliens breaking the law by being here illegally, while either committing fraud by using someone's SSN or avoiding paying tax entirely, often unable to speak English, increasing competition for unskilled labor (construction, landscaping, cooks, dishwashers, etc.), putting downward pressure on wages of the working class. One is lamenting supply and demand, and the is other upset about blatant illegality that has gone on for decades.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    > often unable to speak English Friendly reminder: the US does not have a national or official language.[1] They only harm themselves by not knowing English and usually they try very hard to learn so as to not be at a disadvantage. > while either committing fraud by using someone's SSN or avoiding paying tax entirely If they use someone else's SSN, the payroll taxes are still being paid, so the taxpayer isn't losing out. In fact, it's free money for the SSA because they'll never have to pay out benefits to most of these people later. (Would you take the risk of claiming Social Security if you were here illegally?) If they get paid cash under the table, there are two parties acting illegally - the employer is also to blame (and possibly, laundering money, which is an additional crime). I don't see much vitriol directed against employers though. I hear "Build the wall" but never "Shut them down" (for employers who illegally employ undocumented workers). 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_States#Official_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_States...
    - newfriend 6y ago
      > Friendly reminder: the US does not have a national or official language.[1] English is the de facto language of the US. All government business is done in English. Of course you know this, but are merely stating this as some kind of "gotcha". There is no reason for the US to take anyone who doesn't speak English in this day and age, not with a massive backlog of educated, English-speaking, law-abiding people waiting in the queue. > They only harm themselves by not knowing English and usually they try very hard to learn so as to not be at a disadvantage. If only they put as much effort into following the laws of this country. > If they use someone else's SSN, the payroll taxes are still being paid, so the taxpayer isn't losing out. In fact, it's free money for the SSA because they'll never have to pay out benefits to most of these people later. (Would you take the risk of claiming Social Security if you were here illegally?) They are criminals committing fraud. It's not a victimless crime. What do you think happens to the people who have their SSNs used? > If they get paid cash under the table, there are two parties acting illegally - the employer is also to blame (and possibly, laundering money, which is an additional crime). I don't see much vitriol directed against employers though. Then you may hear it right now, businesses that knowingly employ illegal aliens should be prosecuted for breaking the law. > I hear "Build the wall" but never "Shut them down" (for employers who illegally employ undocumented workers). Unfortunately in our current two-party system, the options are "Build the wall" or "Give them all free health care, and a path to citizenship".

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago

If that were true, where do the terrible neighbours come from? Perhaps tech corporates may have something to do with the reasons these people are trying to survive on the street? I wouldn't blame FAANG specifically, because of course the problem is more complex than that. But there's a certain complacency involved in being young, educated, and in-demand - which can be knocked out of you far more easily than you might think when the next bust happens and suddenly you are the one on the street being told you're a bad neighbour. This is not hyperbole. It has happened in every dot com recession, and it will happen to people you know - possibly even to you - in the next one.