4 ms·

The system is unjust, and you are paying less than what is expected of you, and you benefit from this because your meals are partially subsidized by people arou

The system is unjust, and you are paying less than what is expected of you, and you benefit from this because your meals are partially subsidized by people around you who are tipping, so you benefit and others suffer by your decision.

lotsofpulp 6y ago
While I do tip waiters since that is the norm, I don’t tip others. I also don’t purchase food delivery since the cost to quality ratio is ridiculously high to me, especially considering the tips people now expect. But the system is unjust because people keep rewarding those who make the system unjust. Mainly employers and the tip receivers who like to evade taxes. Both of these can be fixed by greatly increasing minimum wages or implementing a universal basic income.
- klodolph 6y ago
  I don’t think low-paid workers receiving cash tips should be paying much in taxes to begin with. Instead, I think the system should require me and others like me to pay more in taxes.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    Evading taxes with cash tips for food service workers is not the way to accomplish that. That is accomplished with marginal income tax rates.
    - klodolph 6y ago
      > Evading taxes with cash tips for food service workers is not the way to accomplish that. I can only choose among the options I am given, and the ideal system is not one of them. I can either choose to tip someone, and maybe they don’t pay taxes on it, which increases the tax burden for everyone else, or I can choose not to tip someone, which means that person suffers just for the unfortunate coincidence that I am their customer. Let’s say that the normal tip is $5. If I choose to tip someone and they don’t pay taxes, perhaps their marginal tax rate is 12% and this is 60¢ in lost tax revenue. Given a choice between “60¢ in federal tax revenue” or “$5 in income for a low-wage worker”, the correct moral choice becomes stark clear, in my mind.
      - lotsofpulp 6y ago
        The choice in your example is between $4.40 in income or $5 in income, unless I’m missing something. Also, above you wrote that someone that doesn’t tip is being subsidized by those who do tip. Isn’t that the same with evading taxes? Why should certain lower paid jobs have to pay taxes and subsidize those in food service because they have the ability to evade taxes? The incentives get even more screwed up when the tip receivers start advocating against non tipped wages.
        klodolph 6y ago
        > The choice in your example is between $4.40 in income or $5 in income, unless I’m missing something. If I do tip, the person I tip gets $5 and evades paying 60¢ in taxes. If I don’t tip, that person gets $0, and presumably I get to spend that $5 on something else and the taxes will be paid. > Also, above you wrote that someone that doesn’t tip is being subsidized by those who do tip. Isn’t that the same with evading taxes? Yes, it is the same, but the numbers are different and the parties who benefit are different. - If a worker earning tips doesn’t pay 60¢ in taxes, then that’s like the worker being subsidized 60¢ by everyone who does pay taxes. - If I don’t pay a worker $5 in tips, then that’s like me being subsidized $5 by everyone who does pay tips. I am fairly certain that the marginal utility of $5 is higher to the person I am tipping than it is to me, and the societal cost is lower, and it’s what’s expected of me. Now, why I don’t just empty my wallet for everybody I see on the street is an entirely different discussion, but the morality of the choice to tip / not tip $5 when that is the expected amount seems pretty cut and dry from where I’m standing. I’d also say that if I discovered that one of my friends refused to tip service workers, I’d definitely file that information away in my brain as evidence that this “friend” is untrustworthy, of poor moral character, and that I may also risk embarrassment by associating with them.
dTal 6y ago
Conversely, the decision to tip perpetuates an unjust system that relieves employers of the duty to properly compensate their staff, thus throwing the responsibility on the people around you, for the purely selfish reason of conformity. If nobody tipped, ever, we would still have wait staff. The only way to break the cycle is to stop tipping.
- klodolph 6y ago
  > The only way to break the cycle is to stop tipping. As a coordinated social movement, yes. However, if you are only an individual person making an individual choice to not tip, then you are making a purely selfish act to benefit from the unjust system.
  - matz1 6y ago
    >then you are making a purely selfish act to benefit from the unjust system So what is the downside for that individual?
    - edmundsauto 6y ago
      Being ridiculed and ostracized by their social circle for being cheap (assuming comfortable personal finances).
      - ghaff 6y ago
        If a co-worker simply refuses to tip as a matter of "principle" I will simply defer from associating with that individual in restaurants/bars.
      - matz1 6y ago
        Well, not everyone, I wouldn't redicule or ostracize my social circle for not tipping.

lotsofpulp 6y ago

While I do tip waiters since that is the norm, I don’t tip others. I also don’t purchase food delivery since the cost to quality ratio is ridiculously high to me, especially considering the tips people now expect. But the system is unjust because people keep rewarding those who make the system unjust. Mainly employers and the tip receivers who like to evade taxes. Both of these can be fixed by greatly increasing minimum wages or implementing a universal basic income.

klodolph 6y ago
I don’t think low-paid workers receiving cash tips should be paying much in taxes to begin with. Instead, I think the system should require me and others like me to pay more in taxes.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  Evading taxes with cash tips for food service workers is not the way to accomplish that. That is accomplished with marginal income tax rates.
  - klodolph 6y ago
    > Evading taxes with cash tips for food service workers is not the way to accomplish that. I can only choose among the options I am given, and the ideal system is not one of them. I can either choose to tip someone, and maybe they don’t pay taxes on it, which increases the tax burden for everyone else, or I can choose not to tip someone, which means that person suffers just for the unfortunate coincidence that I am their customer. Let’s say that the normal tip is $5. If I choose to tip someone and they don’t pay taxes, perhaps their marginal tax rate is 12% and this is 60¢ in lost tax revenue. Given a choice between “60¢ in federal tax revenue” or “$5 in income for a low-wage worker”, the correct moral choice becomes stark clear, in my mind.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      The choice in your example is between $4.40 in income or $5 in income, unless I’m missing something. Also, above you wrote that someone that doesn’t tip is being subsidized by those who do tip. Isn’t that the same with evading taxes? Why should certain lower paid jobs have to pay taxes and subsidize those in food service because they have the ability to evade taxes? The incentives get even more screwed up when the tip receivers start advocating against non tipped wages.
      - klodolph 6y ago
        > The choice in your example is between $4.40 in income or $5 in income, unless I’m missing something. If I do tip, the person I tip gets $5 and evades paying 60¢ in taxes. If I don’t tip, that person gets $0, and presumably I get to spend that $5 on something else and the taxes will be paid. > Also, above you wrote that someone that doesn’t tip is being subsidized by those who do tip. Isn’t that the same with evading taxes? Yes, it is the same, but the numbers are different and the parties who benefit are different. - If a worker earning tips doesn’t pay 60¢ in taxes, then that’s like the worker being subsidized 60¢ by everyone who does pay taxes. - If I don’t pay a worker $5 in tips, then that’s like me being subsidized $5 by everyone who does pay tips. I am fairly certain that the marginal utility of $5 is higher to the person I am tipping than it is to me, and the societal cost is lower, and it’s what’s expected of me. Now, why I don’t just empty my wallet for everybody I see on the street is an entirely different discussion, but the morality of the choice to tip / not tip $5 when that is the expected amount seems pretty cut and dry from where I’m standing. I’d also say that if I discovered that one of my friends refused to tip service workers, I’d definitely file that information away in my brain as evidence that this “friend” is untrustworthy, of poor moral character, and that I may also risk embarrassment by associating with them.

dTal 6y ago

Conversely, the decision to tip perpetuates an unjust system that relieves employers of the duty to properly compensate their staff, thus throwing the responsibility on the people around you, for the purely selfish reason of conformity. If nobody tipped, ever, we would still have wait staff. The only way to break the cycle is to stop tipping.

klodolph 6y ago
> The only way to break the cycle is to stop tipping. As a coordinated social movement, yes. However, if you are only an individual person making an individual choice to not tip, then you are making a purely selfish act to benefit from the unjust system.
- matz1 6y ago
  >then you are making a purely selfish act to benefit from the unjust system So what is the downside for that individual?
  - edmundsauto 6y ago
    Being ridiculed and ostracized by their social circle for being cheap (assuming comfortable personal finances).
    - ghaff 6y ago
      If a co-worker simply refuses to tip as a matter of "principle" I will simply defer from associating with that individual in restaurants/bars.
    - matz1 6y ago
      Well, not everyone, I wouldn't redicule or ostracize my social circle for not tipping.