7 ms·

The problem I have with tipping in the US is that because of the judgement that prevents restaurants from forcing the waiters to share tips with the kitchen sta

The problem I have with tipping in the US is that because of the judgement that prevents restaurants from forcing the waiters to share tips with the kitchen staff it means that Waiters end up being better paid and better compensated than kitchen staff in many cases (especially in upscale restaurants where the minimum accepted 20% tip is often a not insignificant amount of money). And, while good service is welcome, I never go to a restaurant for the waiters, I go there because of the food. I've eaten at restaurants with absolutely awful service and came back often because the food was amazing. I've never once came back to a restaurant where the food was mediocre but the service was amazing. So why should my tips go to the least important staff in the restaurant?

learc83 6y ago
I don't like the concept of tipping in the first place (although I make an effort to tip well anyway), but I definitely do not want tipping expanded any further than it already is. If restaurant owners can create an even more opaque pricing structure that shifts the rest of their employee costs onto customers they will.
- mbirth 6y ago
  Thing is, it's not even the restaurant owners that are blocking a change to "all incl." prices - it's the waiters, too. Waiting is one of the very few jobs where an untrained person can earn lots of money just by doing their job and being nice.
MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
This is one reason why turnover is so high in the back end. Not only are many overworked, but they also get bitched at by everybody in the restaurant if they don't do something right or have to make a change. Meanwhile waiters and expos don't have any actual skills.
- JackFr 6y ago
  If you haven’t noticed turnover in the front of the house is also very high.
- keiferski 6y ago
  Trust me, as someone that’s been both front and back of house, being a waiter is not easy. Different skillset than being a cook, no doubt, but personally I found waiting far more stressful.
  - username90 6y ago
    Bad waiters also gets tips since they are mandatory.
    - JackFr 6y ago
      No they’re really not. They’re discretionary.
      - username90 6y ago
        Waiters gets angry and starts arguing with you if you don't tip, it is as close to mandatory you can get without making it illegal.
        katbyte 6y ago
        you still don't have too
        sixstringtheory 6y ago
        True, but you may not want to return and receive service from a waiter whom gets combative over how little you tip. As another person who has worked both front and back of house, I’ve seen and heard some pretty awful stuff. This is particularly why I hate the new custom of tipping before even receiving service or food. You have to do some game theoretic dance to decide whether you’ll get bad service if you tip low up front vs get bad service anyways because they’ve already got your money.
        codegeek 6y ago
        In theory Yes. In practice, do that to a waiter and if they remember you next time, Good luck eating that food. Tipping is seen almost as an entitled benefit now but provided by the customers instead of employers. It is a lose-lose situation for the customer and employee because waiters get paid like shit by their employer while customer has to cough up the "tip" regardless of how they felt about the food and service.
- jb1991 6y ago
  If you think waiters don't have any actual skills, I encourage you to spend some time as a waiter at a busy restaurant where most of your income is in the form of tips, and then see how your skills improve over time. It is not an easy job, and harder still to make it a good customer experience. You must develop skills to make it work or you can't last for long.
  - bigbubba 6y ago
    The only skills codebros can recognize involve a keyboard. Many people here have probably never had any other sort of job, and consequently lack empathy for anybody who doesn't work in tech.
    - Symbiote 6y ago
      I worked as a cleaner in a factory for 3 months before I started university. I didn't get tips, and it was hard work in an uncomfortable environment (30°+ all summer, wearing overalls), but a useful experience to look back on.
  - tfehring 6y ago
    GP went too far with that claim but I think their broader point is valid - BOH work is at least comparably hard and demanding to FOH work but often pays 1/4 to 1/2 as much. Same goes for lots of other “unskilled” non-tipped jobs.
alkonaut 6y ago
> the minimum accepted 20% tip What does “minimum accepted tip” mean? How is it not just 20% taken off the prices if it’s mandatory to pay it?
- toxik 6y ago
  Sounds a bit like mandatory donations. Not much of a donation then eh?
  - username90 6y ago
    Tips isn't a donation, it is coerced from the customer since they know many waiters will make a fuss if they don't tip.
- anonunivgrad 6y ago
  If the service is acceptable, you tip ~20% (still okay to round down a few cents). If the service is bad, you don't tip 20%. Usually, if you complain, they will give you some part of your meal free or otherwise provide an adequate remedy, in which case you still tip 20%. Otherwise, it's okay to tip less. You can leave 10%. You can even leave 0%, but don't expect to come back. A sincere apology and attempt to remedy at least deserves some tip.
  - alkonaut 6y ago
    This is what’s some times internationally called a “service charge”, not a tip. It's part of the agreed price, not something I voluntarily add. The "price" is what I can pay and still return. It’s effectively a part of the agreed transaction. I understand the mechanics of it, but it’s extremely weird to me (who isn’t American). I’d be fine with service charges of almost any level. Also if it said “service charge is 30% - please let us know if you aren’t happy with the service and we’ll remove it or compensate you”. That’s fine. What’s important to me is that it’s on the receipt. I wonder how Americans feel paying 0% tip without complaining in Europe (I wouldn’t ever complain and possibly not come back).
    - 6y ago
JackFr 6y ago
Why is the pay rate of the waiters vis-a-vis the kitchen staff of any concern at all to you? And what makes you think you have any sense of the labor market for wait and kitchen staff? Do you fret over pay disparity in other retail interactions? Honestly it seems more like a post-hoc justification to avoid an interaction which seems to make many people uncomfortable. There is tension between not wanting to feel like a chump for voluntarily overpaying and not not wanting to appear cheap.
rusty__ 6y ago
I don't even understand what 'amazing service' would even be? Someone filling your water glass the instant it was empty (just leave a jug on the table thanks), or someone bringing your food from the kitchen and placing it down in front of you in a timely manner? What even is 'great service' as opposed to 'sufficient service'
- bobbean 6y ago
  Sometimes servers will be really cool and have a conversation with you, or make jokes, or be really charismatic, or go out of their way to figure out what kind of food you can eat if you have a weird allergy, and be really nice and obviously wanting to be helpful. They can please a difficult family member who generally complains about everything, or make great food suggestions based off what you say you like. There's a lot of stuff a server can do to go out of their way to stand out. Are you saying you've never had a server where you thought to yourself after you leave "wow, that guy was great."? (also I think some places aren't allowed to, or can't put pitchers on tables, so just ask for 2 waters for yourself if you drink a lot of water and don't want to be bugged)
threatofrain 6y ago
Wouldn’t sharing tips ruin the whole incentive for good service argument as well?
- MrMorden 6y ago
  Tips being an incentive for good service would violate causality. In reality, waiters get higher tips for being white and attractive, which isn't exactly unexpected given the racist crap mentioned in the article.
- SahAssar 6y ago
  Part of the service is cooking your food, right?
  - threatofrain 6y ago
    No, sharing tips with the kitchen is Very Rare. If you’re tipping straight into the kitchen, then your money might do something, but who tips into the kitchen?
EdJiang 6y ago
This is no longer the case as of two years ago! https://www.eater.com/2018/6/12/17439694/tipping-laws-tip-sharing-fair-labor-standards-act https://www.eater.com/2018/6/12/17439694/tipping-laws-tip-sh...

learc83 6y ago

I don't like the concept of tipping in the first place (although I make an effort to tip well anyway), but I definitely do not want tipping expanded any further than it already is. If restaurant owners can create an even more opaque pricing structure that shifts the rest of their employee costs onto customers they will.

mbirth 6y ago
Thing is, it's not even the restaurant owners that are blocking a change to "all incl." prices - it's the waiters, too. Waiting is one of the very few jobs where an untrained person can earn lots of money just by doing their job and being nice.

MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago

This is one reason why turnover is so high in the back end. Not only are many overworked, but they also get bitched at by everybody in the restaurant if they don't do something right or have to make a change. Meanwhile waiters and expos don't have any actual skills.

JackFr 6y ago
If you haven’t noticed turnover in the front of the house is also very high.
keiferski 6y ago
Trust me, as someone that’s been both front and back of house, being a waiter is not easy. Different skillset than being a cook, no doubt, but personally I found waiting far more stressful.
- username90 6y ago
  Bad waiters also gets tips since they are mandatory.
  - JackFr 6y ago
    No they’re really not. They’re discretionary.
    - username90 6y ago
      Waiters gets angry and starts arguing with you if you don't tip, it is as close to mandatory you can get without making it illegal.
      - katbyte 6y ago
        you still don't have too
        sixstringtheory 6y ago
        True, but you may not want to return and receive service from a waiter whom gets combative over how little you tip. As another person who has worked both front and back of house, I’ve seen and heard some pretty awful stuff. This is particularly why I hate the new custom of tipping before even receiving service or food. You have to do some game theoretic dance to decide whether you’ll get bad service if you tip low up front vs get bad service anyways because they’ve already got your money.
        codegeek 6y ago
        In theory Yes. In practice, do that to a waiter and if they remember you next time, Good luck eating that food. Tipping is seen almost as an entitled benefit now but provided by the customers instead of employers. It is a lose-lose situation for the customer and employee because waiters get paid like shit by their employer while customer has to cough up the "tip" regardless of how they felt about the food and service.
jb1991 6y ago
If you think waiters don't have any actual skills, I encourage you to spend some time as a waiter at a busy restaurant where most of your income is in the form of tips, and then see how your skills improve over time. It is not an easy job, and harder still to make it a good customer experience. You must develop skills to make it work or you can't last for long.
- bigbubba 6y ago
  The only skills codebros can recognize involve a keyboard. Many people here have probably never had any other sort of job, and consequently lack empathy for anybody who doesn't work in tech.
  - Symbiote 6y ago
    I worked as a cleaner in a factory for 3 months before I started university. I didn't get tips, and it was hard work in an uncomfortable environment (30°+ all summer, wearing overalls), but a useful experience to look back on.
- tfehring 6y ago
  GP went too far with that claim but I think their broader point is valid - BOH work is at least comparably hard and demanding to FOH work but often pays 1/4 to 1/2 as much. Same goes for lots of other “unskilled” non-tipped jobs.

alkonaut 6y ago

> the minimum accepted 20% tip What does “minimum accepted tip” mean? How is it not just 20% taken off the prices if it’s mandatory to pay it?

toxik 6y ago
Sounds a bit like mandatory donations. Not much of a donation then eh?
- username90 6y ago
  Tips isn't a donation, it is coerced from the customer since they know many waiters will make a fuss if they don't tip.
anonunivgrad 6y ago
If the service is acceptable, you tip ~20% (still okay to round down a few cents). If the service is bad, you don't tip 20%. Usually, if you complain, they will give you some part of your meal free or otherwise provide an adequate remedy, in which case you still tip 20%. Otherwise, it's okay to tip less. You can leave 10%. You can even leave 0%, but don't expect to come back. A sincere apology and attempt to remedy at least deserves some tip.
- alkonaut 6y ago
  This is what’s some times internationally called a “service charge”, not a tip. It's part of the agreed price, not something I voluntarily add. The "price" is what I can pay and still return. It’s effectively a part of the agreed transaction. I understand the mechanics of it, but it’s extremely weird to me (who isn’t American). I’d be fine with service charges of almost any level. Also if it said “service charge is 30% - please let us know if you aren’t happy with the service and we’ll remove it or compensate you”. That’s fine. What’s important to me is that it’s on the receipt. I wonder how Americans feel paying 0% tip without complaining in Europe (I wouldn’t ever complain and possibly not come back).
  - 6y ago

JackFr 6y ago

Why is the pay rate of the waiters vis-a-vis the kitchen staff of any concern at all to you? And what makes you think you have any sense of the labor market for wait and kitchen staff? Do you fret over pay disparity in other retail interactions? Honestly it seems more like a post-hoc justification to avoid an interaction which seems to make many people uncomfortable. There is tension between not wanting to feel like a chump for voluntarily overpaying and not not wanting to appear cheap.

rusty__ 6y ago

I don't even understand what 'amazing service' would even be? Someone filling your water glass the instant it was empty (just leave a jug on the table thanks), or someone bringing your food from the kitchen and placing it down in front of you in a timely manner? What even is 'great service' as opposed to 'sufficient service'

bobbean 6y ago
Sometimes servers will be really cool and have a conversation with you, or make jokes, or be really charismatic, or go out of their way to figure out what kind of food you can eat if you have a weird allergy, and be really nice and obviously wanting to be helpful. They can please a difficult family member who generally complains about everything, or make great food suggestions based off what you say you like. There's a lot of stuff a server can do to go out of their way to stand out. Are you saying you've never had a server where you thought to yourself after you leave "wow, that guy was great."? (also I think some places aren't allowed to, or can't put pitchers on tables, so just ask for 2 waters for yourself if you drink a lot of water and don't want to be bugged)

threatofrain 6y ago

Wouldn’t sharing tips ruin the whole incentive for good service argument as well?

MrMorden 6y ago
Tips being an incentive for good service would violate causality. In reality, waiters get higher tips for being white and attractive, which isn't exactly unexpected given the racist crap mentioned in the article.
SahAssar 6y ago
Part of the service is cooking your food, right?
- threatofrain 6y ago
  No, sharing tips with the kitchen is Very Rare. If you’re tipping straight into the kitchen, then your money might do something, but who tips into the kitchen?

EdJiang 6y ago

This is no longer the case as of two years ago! https://www.eater.com/2018/6/12/17439694/tipping-laws-tip-sharing-fair-labor-standards-act https://www.eater.com/2018/6/12/17439694/tipping-laws-tip-sh...