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This absolutely. Whenever someone brings up using an SBC as some kind of cheap, low-end computer that will get stuffed behind a screen and keyboard/mouse combo

This absolutely. Whenever someone brings up using an SBC as some kind of cheap, low-end computer that will get stuffed behind a screen and keyboard/mouse combo and nothing else, I always bring up how even a 10 year old laptop could probably outperform even a rpi4. Always get called a stick in the mud, too. Maybe I am. But seriously, if you just want a cheap linux desktop, grab any laptop from ebay from the past decade. If you want, strip all the casing and peripherals off -- the mainboards are pretty small. Heck, you can repurpose the i2c bus on the video outputs for whatever you want. Could even use a breakout board and drive a microcontroller, get additional GPIO pins[0]. Probably other nifty hacks out there. The last gen "ExpressCard" expansion slots are basically external PCIe busses, you can great those out and add PCIe cards to a laptop board. [0] https://hackaday.com/2014/06/18/i2c-from-your-vga-port/ https://hackaday.com/2014/06/18/i2c-from-your-vga-port/ Edit: To be clear, I'm not pushing back on the idea of the raspberry pi. There are a ton of valid uses for them. I'm specifically pushing back against the idea that they're cheap, power efficient general purpose linux machines. They are definitely low power, but not necessarily power efficient. And I think re-purposing the mountain of e-waste instead of buying a bunch more new SBCs may be better ecologically, but all the power to those who want to have fun with a cool little ARM board. No sarcasm.

wojciii 6y ago
I see your point. The problem with old laptops is that they can have quirky or unsupported hardware or unstable power saving firmware. This can be like playing russian roulette. The RPI on the other hand has some software that mostly just works. I'm personally not a huge fan of the device, as the sd-cards always dies on me. But as a quick prototyping board they are great.
somesortofsystm 6y ago
In case its not clear, this is the killer app for Raspberry Pi: https://www.acmesystems.it/CM3-HOME https://www.acmesystems.it/CM3-HOME And this: https://revolution.kunbus.com/ https://revolution.kunbus.com/ Please note, this puts open source home automation in the forefront of this rapidly expanding market.
- BigJ1211 6y ago
  RevPis are literally using CM3+ from raspberry, so I don't really see the point you're trying to make there? They're also far more expensive than regular RPis. (I use RevPis profesionally with Balena for fleet management.) Edit: Are you arguing in favour of RPi(-like) devices by saying they can be very useful in applications where an old laptop/computer you have lying around wouldn't be?
  - somesortofsystm 6y ago
    Yeah, the use-case for rPi's is not just to 'function as a hackers toy', but also serve as the basis - a platform - for a great deal many other industry standard applications. The Compute Module is rapidly becoming an embedded commodity - a SOM that is easy to source, has decent tooling, and for which there is an expanding source of developers... Sure, there are other SOM/SOC vendors out there - but few have as resilient a distribution as the raspberryPi foundation. But it turns out, its a pretty decent little computer for a lot of things: Just make your own breakout box.
mastazi 6y ago
I recently went down a similar route - I needed a HTPC to connect to my TV and instead of a Pi I used an old Intel Celeron NUC I had laying around - unfortunately I found out that the old Celeron[1] wasn’t really able to do 1080p video streaming fluidly (I tested from a variety of streaming websites). As far as I can remember [2], even my old Pi 2 was able to stream 1080p no problem. On the other hand, the NUC can boot from a SATA SSD, it can have plenty of RAM installed etc. So, regarding the question if it’s better to use an old PC or a Pi: I guess it depends on what you’re trying to achieve. [1] sorry I’m not home at the moment so I don’t have the model number, all I remember is that it was from the last generation of NUCs that still accepted DDR3 sticks, and that it’s got a Celeron processor. I set it up with Lubuntu and the streaming was done using default Firefox. [2] it was long ago so I don’t remember the details but I am pretty sure that on my first Pi, which must have been a Pi 2, I was able to watch YouTube no problem. I also remember reading articles at the time where people were raving about how good video playback was for such an affordable device.
- xbmcuser 6y ago
  Older hardware does not support hardware decoding at higher resolutions for many formats so that takes out 1 of the major uses of old hardware as internet browsing device.
scottlamb 6y ago
> But seriously, if you just want a cheap linux desktop, grab any laptop from ebay from the past decade. If you want, strip all the casing and peripherals off -- the mainboards are pretty small. I totally believe that this would outperform the RPi4. But I don't always need much performance, and it seems like more work and/or uncertainty to me: * Batteries. People say that if you don't cycle them occasionally they can swell and be a fire hazard. I'd rather not deal with that. Will "any laptop from ebay from the past decade" run without batteries in it? * Running closed. I've also heard that laptops are designed to be used open for heat reasons. Will running it closed cause problems? * Stripping casing and peripherals off. I want it in some case, ideally as compact as the Pi4. Can I find a good case for it and mount it successfully? I'm not much of a hardware DIYer—basically the closest I get is assembling a standard ATX desktop. And will it run headless? If the BIOS gets reset or something, do I need to reattach the stuff to get into the BIOS and allow it to boot without video / keyboard? * Reproducibility. Let's say I'm using it to run a particular open source project (my NVR project, HomeAssistant, etc). From the perspective of either someone telling others how to set it up or the perspective of someone trying to follow those instructions, it's better if I have exactly the same thing, so there aren't so many variations and problems with the physical questions (see above), drivers, etc. The Pi4's availability and price are known quantities world-wide and for a long time. Whatever model I happened to find cheap probably isn't like that. I've had success with a middle ground: buy an used NUC from eBay. Maybe it's hard to find the exact same model, but it's always the same form factor that doesn't need to be modded in a novel way, will always run a stock Linux distribution without problems, etc.
- gruez 6y ago
  >* Batteries. People say that if you don't cycle them occasionally they can swell and be a fire hazard. I'd rather not deal with that. Will "any laptop from ebay from the past decade" run without batteries in it? Yes, at least the ones with removable batteries that I've seen. >* Running closed. I've also heard that laptops are designed to be used open for heat reasons. Will running it closed cause problems? What use case would cause significant heat generation? Worst case you can get a $15 laptop stand with fans.
  - 6y ago

wojciii 6y ago

I see your point. The problem with old laptops is that they can have quirky or unsupported hardware or unstable power saving firmware. This can be like playing russian roulette. The RPI on the other hand has some software that mostly just works. I'm personally not a huge fan of the device, as the sd-cards always dies on me. But as a quick prototyping board they are great.

somesortofsystm 6y ago

In case its not clear, this is the killer app for Raspberry Pi: https://www.acmesystems.it/CM3-HOME https://www.acmesystems.it/CM3-HOME And this: https://revolution.kunbus.com/ https://revolution.kunbus.com/ Please note, this puts open source home automation in the forefront of this rapidly expanding market.

BigJ1211 6y ago
RevPis are literally using CM3+ from raspberry, so I don't really see the point you're trying to make there? They're also far more expensive than regular RPis. (I use RevPis profesionally with Balena for fleet management.) Edit: Are you arguing in favour of RPi(-like) devices by saying they can be very useful in applications where an old laptop/computer you have lying around wouldn't be?
- somesortofsystm 6y ago
  Yeah, the use-case for rPi's is not just to 'function as a hackers toy', but also serve as the basis - a platform - for a great deal many other industry standard applications. The Compute Module is rapidly becoming an embedded commodity - a SOM that is easy to source, has decent tooling, and for which there is an expanding source of developers... Sure, there are other SOM/SOC vendors out there - but few have as resilient a distribution as the raspberryPi foundation. But it turns out, its a pretty decent little computer for a lot of things: Just make your own breakout box.

mastazi 6y ago

I recently went down a similar route - I needed a HTPC to connect to my TV and instead of a Pi I used an old Intel Celeron NUC I had laying around - unfortunately I found out that the old Celeron[1] wasn’t really able to do 1080p video streaming fluidly (I tested from a variety of streaming websites). As far as I can remember [2], even my old Pi 2 was able to stream 1080p no problem. On the other hand, the NUC can boot from a SATA SSD, it can have plenty of RAM installed etc. So, regarding the question if it’s better to use an old PC or a Pi: I guess it depends on what you’re trying to achieve. [1] sorry I’m not home at the moment so I don’t have the model number, all I remember is that it was from the last generation of NUCs that still accepted DDR3 sticks, and that it’s got a Celeron processor. I set it up with Lubuntu and the streaming was done using default Firefox. [2] it was long ago so I don’t remember the details but I am pretty sure that on my first Pi, which must have been a Pi 2, I was able to watch YouTube no problem. I also remember reading articles at the time where people were raving about how good video playback was for such an affordable device.

xbmcuser 6y ago
Older hardware does not support hardware decoding at higher resolutions for many formats so that takes out 1 of the major uses of old hardware as internet browsing device.

scottlamb 6y ago

> But seriously, if you just want a cheap linux desktop, grab any laptop from ebay from the past decade. If you want, strip all the casing and peripherals off -- the mainboards are pretty small. I totally believe that this would outperform the RPi4. But I don't always need much performance, and it seems like more work and/or uncertainty to me: * Batteries. People say that if you don't cycle them occasionally they can swell and be a fire hazard. I'd rather not deal with that. Will "any laptop from ebay from the past decade" run without batteries in it? * Running closed. I've also heard that laptops are designed to be used open for heat reasons. Will running it closed cause problems? * Stripping casing and peripherals off. I want it in some case, ideally as compact as the Pi4. Can I find a good case for it and mount it successfully? I'm not much of a hardware DIYer—basically the closest I get is assembling a standard ATX desktop. And will it run headless? If the BIOS gets reset or something, do I need to reattach the stuff to get into the BIOS and allow it to boot without video / keyboard? * Reproducibility. Let's say I'm using it to run a particular open source project (my NVR project, HomeAssistant, etc). From the perspective of either someone telling others how to set it up or the perspective of someone trying to follow those instructions, it's better if I have exactly the same thing, so there aren't so many variations and problems with the physical questions (see above), drivers, etc. The Pi4's availability and price are known quantities world-wide and for a long time. Whatever model I happened to find cheap probably isn't like that. I've had success with a middle ground: buy an used NUC from eBay. Maybe it's hard to find the exact same model, but it's always the same form factor that doesn't need to be modded in a novel way, will always run a stock Linux distribution without problems, etc.

gruez 6y ago
>* Batteries. People say that if you don't cycle them occasionally they can swell and be a fire hazard. I'd rather not deal with that. Will "any laptop from ebay from the past decade" run without batteries in it? Yes, at least the ones with removable batteries that I've seen. >* Running closed. I've also heard that laptops are designed to be used open for heat reasons. Will running it closed cause problems? What use case would cause significant heat generation? Worst case you can get a $15 laptop stand with fans.
- 6y ago