5 ms·

If you're not a lazy musician, you'll just learn all your scales. No professional player would take you seriously. Sorry.

thomastjeffery 6y ago
> If you're not a lazy musician, you'll just learn all your scales. No professional player would take you seriously. Sorry. This is the heart of the problem. Wanting to factor out unnecessary work isn't lazy. Refusing to change a system, even when that change is a clear improvement is lazy. It's pretty clear that neither you nor the average "professional player" is actually sorry about it. By definition, "professional players" have gone through the effort of learning muscle memory to play 144 scales. By definition, they are not motivated to promote a system where only learning 12 is required. Defining someone who would like to see or implement an improved system as "lazy" is an effective way to stifle diversity. Do you take Jimi Hendrix seriously? Is Jazz serious? This attitude that worships tradition is stifling innovation. I would much rather we stopped taking it seriously.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- sporkologist 6y ago
  Being a professional musician takes tens of thousands of hours of work. If you don't put in the work, it is obvious to the listener. You have to learn all the theory and technique regardless of instrument or key layout. You can reduce the load when you're a beginner by using a ABCDEF keyboard instead of a QWERTY keyboard, but there is no way around learning the basics.
  - thomastjeffery 6y ago
    And at no point was I arguing that. What you don't have to learn is different muscle memory for 11 different keys. That's a lot of work, and the only reason anyone does it is because keyboards are made that way. Becoming an expert takes thousands of hours of work, yes, but why does that mean it should take thousands of hours to become a novice? Just because I have spent thousands of hours learning music does not mean I should demand it be difficult for beginners.
    - sporkologist 6y ago
      > it should take thousands of hours to become a novice? It doesn't, most students are able to navigate their 12 keys by year one. Please show me one scintilla of evidence of your supposed improvements to the codebase. One. Scintilla.
- sporkologist 6y ago
  > By definition, they are not motivated to promote a system where only learning 12 is required. One might assume from this that professional musicians are not interested in the most efficient expression of their musical voice.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    I type well on a QWERTY keyboard. It could be simultaneously true that a Dvorak layout would be better for new typists to learn and use for a lifetime but for me to remain better off unchanged. If I made that choice, it would be because I was interested in the efficient expression of my ideas. (The irony of me typing this on a iPhone on-screen keyboard is painful to me.)
    - thomastjeffery 6y ago
      I learned the Workman layout. I found it advantageous to do so, but I still don't find this to be a good comparison. The thing is, no matter which keyboard layout you use, there is the same amount of muscle memory required to be learned. To contrast, a piano requires 12 times as much muscle memory as a Janko keyboard. Learning to play a piano is hard, and it is made significantly easier by simply changing the physical keyboard layout.
      - sporkologist 6y ago
        > Learning to play a piano is hard, and it is made significantly easier by simply changing the physical keyboard layout. Still waiting for one tiny scintilla of evidence.
      - sporkologist 6y ago
        > Janko keyboard That looks like an accordionist's nightmare.
- sporkologist 6y ago
  > Wanting to factor out unnecessary work isn't lazy. Agreed. As someone with a professional music background, I would simply disagree about the nature of the work involved. If reducing the workload from 144 scales to 12 helps makes someone sound like Jimi Hendrix, I'm all for it.
- sporkologist 6y ago
  > Is Jazz serious? Baseless assertions aside, if there exists a world where jazz musicians don't have to know all their scales, plus altered dominants, plus chromatic substitutions, it would be of great interest.
- sporkologist 6y ago
  > This attitude that worships tradition is stifling innovation. I would much rather we stopped taking it seriously. OMFG with the butt-hurt laziness. Jesus. You're taking it as the professional musician conspiracy being your mighty oppressor, but what I meant is, being a musician takes work. There is no way around it, we are wired to hear it. The keyboard as it is is laid out for efficiency. If you have for instance a keyboard with only 12 keys on it, plus 2 for up/down keys or something, well now you are at 14 keys in addition to thinking about when to modulate, so we are back to square one in terms of complexity. Music is complex, get over it.
  - thomastjeffery 6y ago
    > There is no way around it I have just presented a way. Were you willing to listen? No, it's not a "conspiracy". How condescending. It is, on the other hand, a real problem. Maybe reconsider your persecution complex. > The keyboard as it is is laid out for efficiency. How many times to I need to explain that is not the case? The keyboard is extremely inefficient. It was not designed for efficiency. It was designed to look like the Ionian mode, with accidentals on a separate row.
    - sporkologist 6y ago
      > > There is no way around it > I have just presented a way. Were you willing to listen? I didn't see any practical way if you presented it, just a lot of wishful thinking. Are you saying you have an improved method for a keyboard layout?
    - sporkologist 6y ago
      > The keyboard is extremely inefficient. It was not designed for efficiency. It was designed to look like the Ionian mode, with accidentals on a separate row. If you are offering the Janko keyboard as any kind of alternative, I would have to politely disagree. The video with the guy playing stride piano from 1912 was not really that compelling given music especially since 1920. But, like Coltrane brought back the soprano sax from relative obscurity (Sidney Bechet was an early exponent of the instrument from 3 decades previous), there may very well be a new player of the Janko keyboard who brings it from the past into the present. How efficient does one need a keyboard to be? What is the millisecond improvement of a Janko kbd over standard? Why is 10 fingers at a time on a Janko keyboard better than 10 fingers at a time on a standard keyboard? What kind of musical situation demands 10 simultaneous notes from the keyboard player? Why do you say the current standard keyboard is "extremely inefficient"?
- EVdotIO 6y ago
  Regardless of instrument, at a minimum you need to know your major and minor scales in every key, and arguably piano is easier in the sense you can transpose up and down octaves with the same shapes. Guitar has 6 positions, different spreads to voice correctly, different shapes for the same chords, and with little in regards to visual cues. C and Eb major look pretty different across a fret board, and if you want to shred, there is going to be a lot of scales in your practicing. Nothing is stopping you from becoming a virtuoso on something like an Ableton Push, but there just isn't any short cut around the practice and that's honestly the main slog. 2 hand independence, internal sense of rhythm, syncopation, groove and understanding the relationships and functions of chords/harmony take tons of dedicated practice. Ear training to recognize intervals and chord voicings/relationships is a pain as well. To get where this is second nature just requires a lot of time. Issues with the keyboard's ergonomics are small in comparison. You will need to practice and learn some goofy names, but pretty much it's just a way to describe relative notes, groupings and relationships. Knowing your major and relative minors scales you can learn the other modes relatively easily; Mixolydian is a major scale with dominant 7th, Dorian is a minor scale with a major 6th. Same thinking with chords. Most of this knowledge starts building on top of each other, and gradually you stop consciously thinking about these things while playing. Jazz musicians are absolute nerds when it comes to this. Theory is descriptive not prescriptive; it's how musicians can discuss what's happening in a piece.
  - thomastjeffery 6y ago
    > Regardless of instrument, at a minimum you need to know your major and minor scales in every key, and arguably piano is easier in the sense you can transpose up and down octaves with the same shapes. First of all, "Major" is "Ionian", and "Minor" is "Aeolian". Both are the same exact pattern of notes starting at a different point. This means that playing C Major (Ionian) involves the exact same set of notes as A Minor (Aeolian). > C and Eb major look pretty different across a fret board, and if you want to shred, there is going to be a lot of scales in your practicing. They look exactly the same. One is simply shifted 3 frets away from the next. That's my point. Playing Eb major in the same position as C major would involve changing shapes, and playing Eb major in the same shape as C major would involve changing position. To contrast, playing Eb major in any position on a piano requires playing a totally different shape than C major. That means learning totally different muscle memory for Eb major, which is not necessary on guitar. > Nothing is stopping you from becoming a virtuoso on something like an Ableton Push, but there just isn't any short cut around the practice and that's honestly the main slog. There is nothing stopping me from becoming an expert on something like a Janko piano, except that I don't have one. I do have a piano. My point is that if I had both, I would find it much easier to learn the Janko piano, because it requires significantly less learning. > 2 hand independence, internal sense of rhythm, syncopation, groove and understanding the relationships and functions of chords/harmony take tons of dedicated practice. That's true. Factoring in different muscle memory for each individual key also requires tons of extra dedicated practice. That skill is totally unnecessary, and could be completely factored out by using a chromatic layout, allowing the learner to focus a significant amount more time and effort on those other skills you mentioned. > To get where this is second nature just requires a lot of time. Issues with the keyboard's ergonomics are small in comparison. Small? Arguable. Trivial? Definitely not. > Theory is descriptive not prescriptive; it's how musicians can discuss what's happening in a piece. Yes, and our current descriptors are convoluted. If we had better descriptors, we would be better equipped to discuss. Frankly, they are prescriptive. They prescribe we call "loud" "forte", and "fast" "allegro". They prescribe that we call the 14th half-step up a "9th". The whole thing could use a complete overhaul, but professionalism demands we preserve antiquity. > You will need to practice and learn some goofy names, but pretty much it's just a way to describe relative notes, groupings and relationships. Knowing your major and relative minors scales you can learn the other modes relatively easily; Mixolydian is a major scale with dominant 7th, Dorian is a minor scale with a major 6th. You have illustrated my point well.

thomastjeffery 6y ago

> If you're not a lazy musician, you'll just learn all your scales. No professional player would take you seriously. Sorry. This is the heart of the problem. Wanting to factor out unnecessary work isn't lazy. Refusing to change a system, even when that change is a clear improvement is lazy. It's pretty clear that neither you nor the average "professional player" is actually sorry about it. By definition, "professional players" have gone through the effort of learning muscle memory to play 144 scales. By definition, they are not motivated to promote a system where only learning 12 is required. Defining someone who would like to see or implement an improved system as "lazy" is an effective way to stifle diversity. Do you take Jimi Hendrix seriously? Is Jazz serious? This attitude that worships tradition is stifling innovation. I would much rather we stopped taking it seriously.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
sporkologist 6y ago
Being a professional musician takes tens of thousands of hours of work. If you don't put in the work, it is obvious to the listener. You have to learn all the theory and technique regardless of instrument or key layout. You can reduce the load when you're a beginner by using a ABCDEF keyboard instead of a QWERTY keyboard, but there is no way around learning the basics.
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  And at no point was I arguing that. What you don't have to learn is different muscle memory for 11 different keys. That's a lot of work, and the only reason anyone does it is because keyboards are made that way. Becoming an expert takes thousands of hours of work, yes, but why does that mean it should take thousands of hours to become a novice? Just because I have spent thousands of hours learning music does not mean I should demand it be difficult for beginners.
  - sporkologist 6y ago
    > it should take thousands of hours to become a novice? It doesn't, most students are able to navigate their 12 keys by year one. Please show me one scintilla of evidence of your supposed improvements to the codebase. One. Scintilla.
sporkologist 6y ago
> By definition, they are not motivated to promote a system where only learning 12 is required. One might assume from this that professional musicians are not interested in the most efficient expression of their musical voice.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  I type well on a QWERTY keyboard. It could be simultaneously true that a Dvorak layout would be better for new typists to learn and use for a lifetime but for me to remain better off unchanged. If I made that choice, it would be because I was interested in the efficient expression of my ideas. (The irony of me typing this on a iPhone on-screen keyboard is painful to me.)
  - thomastjeffery 6y ago
    I learned the Workman layout. I found it advantageous to do so, but I still don't find this to be a good comparison. The thing is, no matter which keyboard layout you use, there is the same amount of muscle memory required to be learned. To contrast, a piano requires 12 times as much muscle memory as a Janko keyboard. Learning to play a piano is hard, and it is made significantly easier by simply changing the physical keyboard layout.
    - sporkologist 6y ago
      > Learning to play a piano is hard, and it is made significantly easier by simply changing the physical keyboard layout. Still waiting for one tiny scintilla of evidence.
    - sporkologist 6y ago
      > Janko keyboard That looks like an accordionist's nightmare.
sporkologist 6y ago
> Wanting to factor out unnecessary work isn't lazy. Agreed. As someone with a professional music background, I would simply disagree about the nature of the work involved. If reducing the workload from 144 scales to 12 helps makes someone sound like Jimi Hendrix, I'm all for it.
sporkologist 6y ago
> Is Jazz serious? Baseless assertions aside, if there exists a world where jazz musicians don't have to know all their scales, plus altered dominants, plus chromatic substitutions, it would be of great interest.
sporkologist 6y ago
> This attitude that worships tradition is stifling innovation. I would much rather we stopped taking it seriously. OMFG with the butt-hurt laziness. Jesus. You're taking it as the professional musician conspiracy being your mighty oppressor, but what I meant is, being a musician takes work. There is no way around it, we are wired to hear it. The keyboard as it is is laid out for efficiency. If you have for instance a keyboard with only 12 keys on it, plus 2 for up/down keys or something, well now you are at 14 keys in addition to thinking about when to modulate, so we are back to square one in terms of complexity. Music is complex, get over it.
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  > There is no way around it I have just presented a way. Were you willing to listen? No, it's not a "conspiracy". How condescending. It is, on the other hand, a real problem. Maybe reconsider your persecution complex. > The keyboard as it is is laid out for efficiency. How many times to I need to explain that is not the case? The keyboard is extremely inefficient. It was not designed for efficiency. It was designed to look like the Ionian mode, with accidentals on a separate row.
  - sporkologist 6y ago
    > > There is no way around it > I have just presented a way. Were you willing to listen? I didn't see any practical way if you presented it, just a lot of wishful thinking. Are you saying you have an improved method for a keyboard layout?
  - sporkologist 6y ago
    > The keyboard is extremely inefficient. It was not designed for efficiency. It was designed to look like the Ionian mode, with accidentals on a separate row. If you are offering the Janko keyboard as any kind of alternative, I would have to politely disagree. The video with the guy playing stride piano from 1912 was not really that compelling given music especially since 1920. But, like Coltrane brought back the soprano sax from relative obscurity (Sidney Bechet was an early exponent of the instrument from 3 decades previous), there may very well be a new player of the Janko keyboard who brings it from the past into the present. How efficient does one need a keyboard to be? What is the millisecond improvement of a Janko kbd over standard? Why is 10 fingers at a time on a Janko keyboard better than 10 fingers at a time on a standard keyboard? What kind of musical situation demands 10 simultaneous notes from the keyboard player? Why do you say the current standard keyboard is "extremely inefficient"?
EVdotIO 6y ago
Regardless of instrument, at a minimum you need to know your major and minor scales in every key, and arguably piano is easier in the sense you can transpose up and down octaves with the same shapes. Guitar has 6 positions, different spreads to voice correctly, different shapes for the same chords, and with little in regards to visual cues. C and Eb major look pretty different across a fret board, and if you want to shred, there is going to be a lot of scales in your practicing. Nothing is stopping you from becoming a virtuoso on something like an Ableton Push, but there just isn't any short cut around the practice and that's honestly the main slog. 2 hand independence, internal sense of rhythm, syncopation, groove and understanding the relationships and functions of chords/harmony take tons of dedicated practice. Ear training to recognize intervals and chord voicings/relationships is a pain as well. To get where this is second nature just requires a lot of time. Issues with the keyboard's ergonomics are small in comparison. You will need to practice and learn some goofy names, but pretty much it's just a way to describe relative notes, groupings and relationships. Knowing your major and relative minors scales you can learn the other modes relatively easily; Mixolydian is a major scale with dominant 7th, Dorian is a minor scale with a major 6th. Same thinking with chords. Most of this knowledge starts building on top of each other, and gradually you stop consciously thinking about these things while playing. Jazz musicians are absolute nerds when it comes to this. Theory is descriptive not prescriptive; it's how musicians can discuss what's happening in a piece.
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  > Regardless of instrument, at a minimum you need to know your major and minor scales in every key, and arguably piano is easier in the sense you can transpose up and down octaves with the same shapes. First of all, "Major" is "Ionian", and "Minor" is "Aeolian". Both are the same exact pattern of notes starting at a different point. This means that playing C Major (Ionian) involves the exact same set of notes as A Minor (Aeolian). > C and Eb major look pretty different across a fret board, and if you want to shred, there is going to be a lot of scales in your practicing. They look exactly the same. One is simply shifted 3 frets away from the next. That's my point. Playing Eb major in the same position as C major would involve changing shapes, and playing Eb major in the same shape as C major would involve changing position. To contrast, playing Eb major in any position on a piano requires playing a totally different shape than C major. That means learning totally different muscle memory for Eb major, which is not necessary on guitar. > Nothing is stopping you from becoming a virtuoso on something like an Ableton Push, but there just isn't any short cut around the practice and that's honestly the main slog. There is nothing stopping me from becoming an expert on something like a Janko piano, except that I don't have one. I do have a piano. My point is that if I had both, I would find it much easier to learn the Janko piano, because it requires significantly less learning. > 2 hand independence, internal sense of rhythm, syncopation, groove and understanding the relationships and functions of chords/harmony take tons of dedicated practice. That's true. Factoring in different muscle memory for each individual key also requires tons of extra dedicated practice. That skill is totally unnecessary, and could be completely factored out by using a chromatic layout, allowing the learner to focus a significant amount more time and effort on those other skills you mentioned. > To get where this is second nature just requires a lot of time. Issues with the keyboard's ergonomics are small in comparison. Small? Arguable. Trivial? Definitely not. > Theory is descriptive not prescriptive; it's how musicians can discuss what's happening in a piece. Yes, and our current descriptors are convoluted. If we had better descriptors, we would be better equipped to discuss. Frankly, they are prescriptive. They prescribe we call "loud" "forte", and "fast" "allegro". They prescribe that we call the 14th half-step up a "9th". The whole thing could use a complete overhaul, but professionalism demands we preserve antiquity. > You will need to practice and learn some goofy names, but pretty much it's just a way to describe relative notes, groupings and relationships. Knowing your major and relative minors scales you can learn the other modes relatively easily; Mixolydian is a major scale with dominant 7th, Dorian is a minor scale with a major 6th. You have illustrated my point well.