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In my mind, that's the primary design flaw with traditional password managers. Why should end users store passwords? It introduces so many issues. Must have pro

by 16s 15y ago

In my mind, that's the primary design flaw with traditional password managers. Why should end users store passwords? It introduces so many issues. Must have proper encryption. Must deal with synchronization. Must have master password. The list could go on and on. Passwords should be generated (locally on your device) when needed, and never stored in any way. Edit: Some more negatives to password storage. Must protect stored password file. May be required to log access to stored password file for compliance reasons. Stored password files may become corrupt and stop working.

brown9-2 15y ago
I don't think I understand this - if the password isn't stored, do you expect the user to memorize all the various passwords?
- 16s 15y ago
  End users don't need to memorize any passwords. They don't know them and they do not care what the passwords are (nor should they). They only need to know how to generate them when needed. Read about SHA1_Pass and try it out. I use it (and wrote it) to deal with hundreds of passwords that change frequently. I tried to make traditional password managers work for a number of years, before realizing that the traditional approach (password storage, master password) is fundamentally flawed and introduces more problems than it solves.
  - pzxc 15y ago
    I've looked at SHA1_Pass when it was posted here on HN a while back, and I'm not impressed. You have to memorize a passphrase, which is only marginally easier than remembering a master password, but you also have to remember an individual word for each account/website. Yes this is easier than remembering individual passwords but not as easy as just remembering one master password that unlocks an encrypted database (like Keepass). From the FAQ for SHA1_Pass, it says "when your bank asks you to change your password, just increment your word from BILLS to BILLS1 or BILLS2". More stuff to remember, which BILLS was I on again? Additionally, some accounts have restrictions on usable characters or password length. The FAQ for SHA1_Pass says "try base64 half-encoding, its only 14 characters, and if that's too long maybe you shouldn't be using that website". Well I'm sorry but some BANKS do not allow passwords that long. You and I both know it's idiotic, but some banks have a small maximum password length, and some of them even restrict you to alphanumeric characters only. I applaud SHA1_pass for trying to be innovative, you don't know what works unless you try it, but it looks like the result is a failure to me... too much complexity generated around the goal of trying to make passwords easy to remember, yet hashed to be secure. Just generate a random password with Keepass, whatever length and character sets you want, and store it. What's the big deal? Yes, there's a chance that Keepass didn't do their encryption properly and your master password will be crackable, and someone will hack into your dropbox account and then have all your passwords. But with SHA1_pass there's also a chance someone will guess or socially engineer your passphrase, and since all your site words are "facebook" for facebook etc etc they too have full access to all your accounts.
    - 16s 15y ago
      "You have to memorize a passphrase" This is an inaccurate statement. You remember a sentence. Sentences are naturally and easy to recall. The fat, green stick. for example. And then a word for each site you visit. That's it. You can use it anyway you like and take my samples for what they are... samples. What's the big deal? Controlling your passwords on your devices and not relying on others. Passwords are IT Security 101, if you get them wrong you fail.

by 16s 15y ago

brown9-2 15y ago

I don't think I understand this - if the password isn't stored, do you expect the user to memorize all the various passwords?

16s 15y ago
End users don't need to memorize any passwords. They don't know them and they do not care what the passwords are (nor should they). They only need to know how to generate them when needed. Read about SHA1_Pass and try it out. I use it (and wrote it) to deal with hundreds of passwords that change frequently. I tried to make traditional password managers work for a number of years, before realizing that the traditional approach (password storage, master password) is fundamentally flawed and introduces more problems than it solves.
- pzxc 15y ago
  I've looked at SHA1_Pass when it was posted here on HN a while back, and I'm not impressed. You have to memorize a passphrase, which is only marginally easier than remembering a master password, but you also have to remember an individual word for each account/website. Yes this is easier than remembering individual passwords but not as easy as just remembering one master password that unlocks an encrypted database (like Keepass). From the FAQ for SHA1_Pass, it says "when your bank asks you to change your password, just increment your word from BILLS to BILLS1 or BILLS2". More stuff to remember, which BILLS was I on again? Additionally, some accounts have restrictions on usable characters or password length. The FAQ for SHA1_Pass says "try base64 half-encoding, its only 14 characters, and if that's too long maybe you shouldn't be using that website". Well I'm sorry but some BANKS do not allow passwords that long. You and I both know it's idiotic, but some banks have a small maximum password length, and some of them even restrict you to alphanumeric characters only. I applaud SHA1_pass for trying to be innovative, you don't know what works unless you try it, but it looks like the result is a failure to me... too much complexity generated around the goal of trying to make passwords easy to remember, yet hashed to be secure. Just generate a random password with Keepass, whatever length and character sets you want, and store it. What's the big deal? Yes, there's a chance that Keepass didn't do their encryption properly and your master password will be crackable, and someone will hack into your dropbox account and then have all your passwords. But with SHA1_pass there's also a chance someone will guess or socially engineer your passphrase, and since all your site words are "facebook" for facebook etc etc they too have full access to all your accounts.
  - 16s 15y ago
    "You have to memorize a passphrase" This is an inaccurate statement. You remember a sentence. Sentences are naturally and easy to recall. The fat, green stick. for example. And then a word for each site you visit. That's it. You can use it anyway you like and take my samples for what they are... samples. What's the big deal? Controlling your passwords on your devices and not relying on others. Passwords are IT Security 101, if you get them wrong you fail.