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Rather than reading yet another article about how there’s all that COBOL still out there powering critical systems, which should comes as no surprise whatsoever

Rather than reading yet another article about how there’s all that COBOL still out there powering critical systems, which should comes as no surprise whatsoever to regular readers of Hacker News —— why not read a book about the deeper reasons how and why old technologies persist, and the ethic and duty of maintaining them. Specifically: David Edgerton, The Shock of the Old: Technology and Global History Since 1900 (2006). Andrew L. Russell and Lee Vinsel, The Innovation Delusion: How Our Obsession with the New Has Disrupted the Work That Matters Most (2020). You won’t agree with everything in those books, but they will make you think deeply about old technologies and the stories we tell ourselves about innovation.

herodoturtle 6y ago
These books sound great. Would you recommend I read them in that order too?
- libraryofbabel 6y ago
  Yes! The second book is heavily influenced by the first. The first one (Edgerton) is history, with the argument being roughly that we should frame the history of technology not just in terms of inventions/innovations, but also in terms of what was actually in use at a particular moment. (So the early 21st century is about self-driving cars and the iPhone, but also the Haber-Bosch Process and COBOL.) The second book is more about the present, and is concerned with how we tend to talk too much about innovation and not enough about maintenance. (So they love Right to Repair and Open Source maintainers, among other things.)
  - herodoturtle 6y ago
    Thank you :)
throwaway201103 6y ago
Chicago FD dispatched fire engines by telegraph until the 1990s. http://chicagoareafire.com/blog/2015/02/chicago-fd-history-the-joker-stand/ http://chicagoareafire.com/blog/2015/02/chicago-fd-history-t...
totemandtoken 6y ago
Somewhat related question you might be able to answer - what are good examples of really resilient code bases a junior developer can look at to learn? Old code still in production just sounds antifragile to me and that's the sort of code I'd like to write
- xiphias2 6y ago
  It's just the opposite. Old code is so fragile because you don't know what's important in it. An example is Bitcoin's concensus critical code: anything that goes in there probably has to be maintained forever (or for the life of Bitcoin)
  - segfaultbuserr 6y ago
    > Old code is so fragile because you don't know what's important in it. An example is Bitcoin's concensus critical code I don't think Bitcoin is a perfect example here, the Bitcoin consensus rule is fragile because it's Bitcoin, not because it's old. The unchangeable consensus code is a result due to the fundamental property of Bitcoin itself (every client must run in lockstep, even the slightest deviance cannot be tolerated, which means there should be one and only one Bitcoin client whose behavior shall remain consistent for as long as Bitcoin exists), this outcome is independent from its code quality, age, and other factors. ...Nevertheless, on second thought, the Bitcoin analogy isn't too far from the truth. If an aged legacy system is the dependency of many other systems and serves a critical role, it effectively becomes Bitcoin-like.
    - xiphias2 6y ago
      Of course, regulations help old code to remain as well, which is probably the case in finance. Just think about Boeing's case where the company is trying to fit new code into the memory of a 8086 chip.
      - segfaultbuserr 6y ago
        I thought it was the 80286, not the original 8086. Don't underestimate the computing power of an aircraft too much...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
0x445442 6y ago
I'd throw Postman's work in there as well... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technopoly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technopoly
tuatoru 6y ago
Thanks for these! I have a copy of The Shock of The Old and I did find it thought-provoking. I had recently become aware of the ideas/discipline of discourse analysis[1] so it was more enlightening than it might have been to someone who wasn't really aware that our narratives are framed (like younger me). I'll be checking out the Russell and Vinsel. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_analysis

herodoturtle 6y ago

These books sound great. Would you recommend I read them in that order too?

libraryofbabel 6y ago
Yes! The second book is heavily influenced by the first. The first one (Edgerton) is history, with the argument being roughly that we should frame the history of technology not just in terms of inventions/innovations, but also in terms of what was actually in use at a particular moment. (So the early 21st century is about self-driving cars and the iPhone, but also the Haber-Bosch Process and COBOL.) The second book is more about the present, and is concerned with how we tend to talk too much about innovation and not enough about maintenance. (So they love Right to Repair and Open Source maintainers, among other things.)
- herodoturtle 6y ago
  Thank you :)

throwaway201103 6y ago

Chicago FD dispatched fire engines by telegraph until the 1990s. http://chicagoareafire.com/blog/2015/02/chicago-fd-history-the-joker-stand/ http://chicagoareafire.com/blog/2015/02/chicago-fd-history-t...

totemandtoken 6y ago

Somewhat related question you might be able to answer - what are good examples of really resilient code bases a junior developer can look at to learn? Old code still in production just sounds antifragile to me and that's the sort of code I'd like to write

xiphias2 6y ago
It's just the opposite. Old code is so fragile because you don't know what's important in it. An example is Bitcoin's concensus critical code: anything that goes in there probably has to be maintained forever (or for the life of Bitcoin)
- segfaultbuserr 6y ago
  > Old code is so fragile because you don't know what's important in it. An example is Bitcoin's concensus critical code I don't think Bitcoin is a perfect example here, the Bitcoin consensus rule is fragile because it's Bitcoin, not because it's old. The unchangeable consensus code is a result due to the fundamental property of Bitcoin itself (every client must run in lockstep, even the slightest deviance cannot be tolerated, which means there should be one and only one Bitcoin client whose behavior shall remain consistent for as long as Bitcoin exists), this outcome is independent from its code quality, age, and other factors. ...Nevertheless, on second thought, the Bitcoin analogy isn't too far from the truth. If an aged legacy system is the dependency of many other systems and serves a critical role, it effectively becomes Bitcoin-like.
  - xiphias2 6y ago
    Of course, regulations help old code to remain as well, which is probably the case in finance. Just think about Boeing's case where the company is trying to fit new code into the memory of a 8086 chip.
    - segfaultbuserr 6y ago
      I thought it was the 80286, not the original 8086. Don't underestimate the computing power of an aircraft too much...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

0x445442 6y ago

I'd throw Postman's work in there as well... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technopoly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technopoly

tuatoru 6y ago

Thanks for these! I have a copy of The Shock of The Old and I did find it thought-provoking. I had recently become aware of the ideas/discipline of discourse analysis[1] so it was more enlightening than it might have been to someone who wasn't really aware that our narratives are framed (like younger me). I'll be checking out the Russell and Vinsel. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_analysis