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I dislike all things "new web". The websites feel like layers upon layers of Javascript, fancy designs that feel like they are responsible for the decreased res

by zests 6y ago

I dislike all things "new web". The websites feel like layers upon layers of Javascript, fancy designs that feel like they are responsible for the decreased responsiveness. Styles delegated to the same CSS frameworks that everyone else uses. The rounded corners. Give me plain HTML, minimal CSS, and a template engine any day of the week.

kodah 6y ago
Plain HTMl, minimal CSS, and a template engine aren't quite substitutes for event driven systems that also drive really nice features. On the other hand, I recently was testing my website on Brave and a simple request from my frontend to the backend (which resides in the same container) was rejected as a tracking script even though I know it doesn't do any tracking that I've implemented. I was really hoping WASM might fill this gap, and it still might, but it'll be a while from what I can tell.
ketamine__ 6y ago
That is not going to keep designers employed.
buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
I want to agree, but don't. Javascript is nice. Leave a comment on HN, then push back to go out to the home page. Wait, you're back at your comment. This flow is obviously not ideal, and would be prevented with a little Javascript.
- Pxtl 6y ago
  Also, it would be basically impossible to host comment threads on video content if the video reset every time you submitted a comment. By comparison, Twitter's video experience is still awful in that you can't multitask and join the conversation on a video tweet.
  - ysavir 6y ago
    Thankfully, it's not en either/or situation. The principle that site designers need to start abiding by is to not reinvent the browser--there's no need to use JS for routing or single page apps. The browser does that fantastically already. All that's needed of JS is to add asynchronicity to pages that need to update state without interrupting a running service.
  - edjrage 6y ago
    Ever heard of iframes?
    - buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
      I really hope iframes aren’t the “right” way to do just about anything.
    - Zarel 6y ago
      iframes are horrible on the back button and have a number of other UX issues that make them overall much worse than JavaScript.
- userbinator 6y ago
  I've been using HN without JS ever since I found this site, and it works perfectly fine.
  - buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
    I think you misunderstand me. I’m not saying the site doesn’t work fine without JavaScript. Just that the back button usually takes you to the home page, except when it annoyingly takes you to the “edit comment” page that has already been submitted.
- millstone 6y ago
  The old web placed HTML and CSS as primary, and used JS for incidental tasks like form validation, or fixing up the back button. The big idea was "graceful degradation": sites were expected to work without JS, at the cost of (say) a server-side error instead of immediate feedback. Modern reddit does not gracefully degrade: it requires JS to click buttons, to load images, to scroll, etc. Old reddit still works well without JS. So does Google for that matter.
  - 8note 6y ago
    The old web was optimized for devices that may or may not be able to run much JavaScript or of they did, it was a patchwork of different APIs from different browsers. The new web caters to advertisers, and rightly assumes that everyone has a browser that follows JavaScript standards.
- edjrage 6y ago
  > would be prevented with a little Javascript ... Or better standards that don't require JavaScript. The jump from "we need seamless navigation" to "let's use a Turing-complete language" makes zero sense.

by zests 6y ago

kodah 6y ago

Plain HTMl, minimal CSS, and a template engine aren't quite substitutes for event driven systems that also drive really nice features. On the other hand, I recently was testing my website on Brave and a simple request from my frontend to the backend (which resides in the same container) was rejected as a tracking script even though I know it doesn't do any tracking that I've implemented. I was really hoping WASM might fill this gap, and it still might, but it'll be a while from what I can tell.

ketamine__ 6y ago

That is not going to keep designers employed.

buzzerbetrayed 6y ago

I want to agree, but don't. Javascript is nice. Leave a comment on HN, then push back to go out to the home page. Wait, you're back at your comment. This flow is obviously not ideal, and would be prevented with a little Javascript.

Pxtl 6y ago
Also, it would be basically impossible to host comment threads on video content if the video reset every time you submitted a comment. By comparison, Twitter's video experience is still awful in that you can't multitask and join the conversation on a video tweet.
- ysavir 6y ago
  Thankfully, it's not en either/or situation. The principle that site designers need to start abiding by is to not reinvent the browser--there's no need to use JS for routing or single page apps. The browser does that fantastically already. All that's needed of JS is to add asynchronicity to pages that need to update state without interrupting a running service.
- edjrage 6y ago
  Ever heard of iframes?
  - buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
    I really hope iframes aren’t the “right” way to do just about anything.
  - Zarel 6y ago
    iframes are horrible on the back button and have a number of other UX issues that make them overall much worse than JavaScript.
userbinator 6y ago
I've been using HN without JS ever since I found this site, and it works perfectly fine.
- buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
  I think you misunderstand me. I’m not saying the site doesn’t work fine without JavaScript. Just that the back button usually takes you to the home page, except when it annoyingly takes you to the “edit comment” page that has already been submitted.
millstone 6y ago
The old web placed HTML and CSS as primary, and used JS for incidental tasks like form validation, or fixing up the back button. The big idea was "graceful degradation": sites were expected to work without JS, at the cost of (say) a server-side error instead of immediate feedback. Modern reddit does not gracefully degrade: it requires JS to click buttons, to load images, to scroll, etc. Old reddit still works well without JS. So does Google for that matter.
- 8note 6y ago
  The old web was optimized for devices that may or may not be able to run much JavaScript or of they did, it was a patchwork of different APIs from different browsers. The new web caters to advertisers, and rightly assumes that everyone has a browser that follows JavaScript standards.
edjrage 6y ago
> would be prevented with a little Javascript ... Or better standards that don't require JavaScript. The jump from "we need seamless navigation" to "let's use a Turing-complete language" makes zero sense.