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Sorry if I haven't heard enough of this crazy talk yet to understand it. You're saying that residential property gets a special restriction on how people who o

Sorry if I haven't heard enough of this crazy talk yet to understand it. You're saying that residential property gets a special restriction on how people who own something are able to use it or enter into agreements on how they can charge others for the use of it? Who occupies a house then? Only the owner?

thomastjeffery 6y ago
> Sorry if I haven't heard enough of this crazy talk yet to understand it. I get that this proposal is a significant change from the status quo. That's the point. The status quo has some glaring issues. I understand it's difficult to take proposals for big changes seriously, but does that mean we should not take the problems of our current system seriously? > You're saying that residential property gets a special restriction on how people who own something are able to use it or enter into agreements on how they can charge others for the use of it? Yes. Specifically, no one can enter an agreement where housing can be rented. The core idea is that housing can be owned and sold, just that it can't be rented. There can be some discussion as to whether short term contracts like hotels could be allowed, but they would have to be regulated to prevent abuse. The only question left is what to do about extant rental contracts. > Who occupies a house then? Only the owner? The owner or a guest. That's how housing works outside renting. If you can't charge rent on property, then you are incentivized to sell it, thereby flooding the home ownership market and lowering the cost of housing. This is a concept that has been discussed at length elsewhere. I encourage you not to use me as your only source of education.
- supernova87a 6y ago
  So, no one could move to say, a different city, until they found a house they could buy? I really think you need to think about unintended consequences. Not even unintended -- like, kindergarten 0th order effects.
  - thomastjeffery 6y ago
    No one can move to a different city until they can find a house or apartment they can rent. The only significant difference between buying property and renting it is that renters get to exploit tenants. > I really think you need to think about unintended consequences. Not even unintended -- like, kindergarten 0th order effects. Like I said, this is a serious idea that has existed for decades, not some trivial thing I pulled out of my ass. Just because it doesn't instantly appeal to you does not mean it is worthless. I'm not going to sit here and step you through every consideration made on this topic. If you are honestly interested, you can go read about it yourself. Frankly, your decision to talk down to me like I'm some kind of thoughtless child merely stifles the conversation for both parties. Kindly get off your high horse.
    - supernova87a 6y ago
      If I appear to talk down to you, it's because by and large people who seriously believe that such an idea is theoretically (not to say even in practice) good (or beneficial) are thinking at a child's level and not responsible for running a society. Fundamentally upending a system that has brought prosperity to generations of people because it has become marginally harder for some today -- that's mature and responsible? Everyone should just share? Let me guess, on some of the other discussions on HN you would be of the position that people should have the right to repair their mobile phones themselves, control what software runs on their computers, etc. etc? And yet, you would propose interfering with people's most fundamental desire to control and do what they want with the house they own? Someday, I'm sure you'll realize that it's more productive to work within and guide basic human nature, than to try to put rules down that everyone wants to break.
      - thomastjeffery 6y ago
        > If I appear to talk down to you, it's because by and large people who seriously believe that such an idea is theoretically (not to say even in practice) good (or beneficial) are thinking at a child's level and not responsible for running a society. In other words, if you appear to be talking down to me, it is because you are. I got that. > Fundamentally upending a system that has brought prosperity to generations of people because it has become marginally harder for some today -- that's mature and responsible? Everyone should just share? "Fundamentally upending" is your categorization, not mine. What you call, "brought prosperity to generations of people" is what I call, "concentrated wealth into the hands of a tiny tiny fraction of society". That's not a thing I am proud of. I don't call the system that made that happen "mature" or "responsible". The reality of those people "not sharing" has devastating effects for millions of others. Four hundred men's "prosperity" is literally millions' poverty. > Let me guess, on some of the other discussions on HN you would be of the position that people should have the right to repair their mobile phones themselves, control what software runs on their computers, etc. etc? And yet, you would propose interfering with people's most fundamental desire to control and do what they want with the house they own? Yes. Abolishing rental contracts for housing in no way conflicts with those other things. In fact, abolishing rental housing contracts would put more people in a position to do what they want with the house they live in. You see, people predominately do not rent their computers. People in general don't pay half of their income for permission to rent someone else's computer because they can't afford to buy their own. If they did, they would fundamentally not be able to access the right to repair that computer or arbitrarily run whatever software they want on it. Can your ideologue brain handle it, or does it break too many rules? Someday you might learn that your current perspective isn't the ultimate best way of thinking ever. Or you won't. The latter is looking more likely at the moment.

thomastjeffery 6y ago

> Sorry if I haven't heard enough of this crazy talk yet to understand it. I get that this proposal is a significant change from the status quo. That's the point. The status quo has some glaring issues. I understand it's difficult to take proposals for big changes seriously, but does that mean we should not take the problems of our current system seriously? > You're saying that residential property gets a special restriction on how people who own something are able to use it or enter into agreements on how they can charge others for the use of it? Yes. Specifically, no one can enter an agreement where housing can be rented. The core idea is that housing can be owned and sold, just that it can't be rented. There can be some discussion as to whether short term contracts like hotels could be allowed, but they would have to be regulated to prevent abuse. The only question left is what to do about extant rental contracts. > Who occupies a house then? Only the owner? The owner or a guest. That's how housing works outside renting. If you can't charge rent on property, then you are incentivized to sell it, thereby flooding the home ownership market and lowering the cost of housing. This is a concept that has been discussed at length elsewhere. I encourage you not to use me as your only source of education.

supernova87a 6y ago
So, no one could move to say, a different city, until they found a house they could buy? I really think you need to think about unintended consequences. Not even unintended -- like, kindergarten 0th order effects.
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  No one can move to a different city until they can find a house or apartment they can rent. The only significant difference between buying property and renting it is that renters get to exploit tenants. > I really think you need to think about unintended consequences. Not even unintended -- like, kindergarten 0th order effects. Like I said, this is a serious idea that has existed for decades, not some trivial thing I pulled out of my ass. Just because it doesn't instantly appeal to you does not mean it is worthless. I'm not going to sit here and step you through every consideration made on this topic. If you are honestly interested, you can go read about it yourself. Frankly, your decision to talk down to me like I'm some kind of thoughtless child merely stifles the conversation for both parties. Kindly get off your high horse.
  - supernova87a 6y ago
    If I appear to talk down to you, it's because by and large people who seriously believe that such an idea is theoretically (not to say even in practice) good (or beneficial) are thinking at a child's level and not responsible for running a society. Fundamentally upending a system that has brought prosperity to generations of people because it has become marginally harder for some today -- that's mature and responsible? Everyone should just share? Let me guess, on some of the other discussions on HN you would be of the position that people should have the right to repair their mobile phones themselves, control what software runs on their computers, etc. etc? And yet, you would propose interfering with people's most fundamental desire to control and do what they want with the house they own? Someday, I'm sure you'll realize that it's more productive to work within and guide basic human nature, than to try to put rules down that everyone wants to break.
    - thomastjeffery 6y ago
      > If I appear to talk down to you, it's because by and large people who seriously believe that such an idea is theoretically (not to say even in practice) good (or beneficial) are thinking at a child's level and not responsible for running a society. In other words, if you appear to be talking down to me, it is because you are. I got that. > Fundamentally upending a system that has brought prosperity to generations of people because it has become marginally harder for some today -- that's mature and responsible? Everyone should just share? "Fundamentally upending" is your categorization, not mine. What you call, "brought prosperity to generations of people" is what I call, "concentrated wealth into the hands of a tiny tiny fraction of society". That's not a thing I am proud of. I don't call the system that made that happen "mature" or "responsible". The reality of those people "not sharing" has devastating effects for millions of others. Four hundred men's "prosperity" is literally millions' poverty. > Let me guess, on some of the other discussions on HN you would be of the position that people should have the right to repair their mobile phones themselves, control what software runs on their computers, etc. etc? And yet, you would propose interfering with people's most fundamental desire to control and do what they want with the house they own? Yes. Abolishing rental contracts for housing in no way conflicts with those other things. In fact, abolishing rental housing contracts would put more people in a position to do what they want with the house they live in. You see, people predominately do not rent their computers. People in general don't pay half of their income for permission to rent someone else's computer because they can't afford to buy their own. If they did, they would fundamentally not be able to access the right to repair that computer or arbitrarily run whatever software they want on it. Can your ideologue brain handle it, or does it break too many rules? Someday you might learn that your current perspective isn't the ultimate best way of thinking ever. Or you won't. The latter is looking more likely at the moment.