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Nope, I didn't say that we should not help ever unless it benefits everyone. I'm saying that when you implicitly pick a group to help over others, you'd better

Nope, I didn't say that we should not help ever unless it benefits everyone. I'm saying that when you implicitly pick a group to help over others, you'd better be careful about the incentives and signals it gives on what you want to happen next time. As I said, it would be more reasonable to give everyone a credit, not forgive debt.

Larrikin 6y ago
But why is it more reasonable to give a credit? The goal is to reduce the amount of people who are putting off major life decisions because they are deep in debt from society forcing them to get an expensive degree. The people who have gotten out from under that burden are no long bringing society down. I don't get a check from the unemployment office after the fact if they ever increase the amount of unemployment people get. Its just a benefit I did not get. I think the more reasonable thing would be to forgive debt AND find a solution to making sure nobody else has to suffer from crushing debt for education. Make community college free, heavily subsidize people who go to public colleges, etc.
- berberous 6y ago
  >> from society forcing them to get an expensive degree I am actually sympathetic to the fact that social pressure or other structural dynamics may encourage people to make bad choices, but they were not “forced”.
- foogazi 6y ago
  > from society forcing them to get an expensive degree. How does “society” force someone to get an expensive degree? It is always a choice
  - happytoexplain 6y ago
    This is a pretty unrealistic position. Society also doesn't "force" you to get a job that doesn't make you happy. But speaking realistically, society forces people to do many things without using direct physicality or threats. Your position is common among "personal responsibility" absolutists, which, like most absolutism, doesn't really work.
    - foogazi 6y ago
      > Society also doesn't "force" you to get a job that doesn't make you happy. 1. Absolutely 2. What’s this about a job making you happy? > But speaking realistically, society forces people to do many things without using direct physicality or threats. I don’t get this line of thinking. I can come up with compulsory taxation, but you can always move to another society. What has society forced you to do?
      - AstralStorm 6y ago
        Before this gets too out of hand. 1. Nature forces you to eat and have shelter. There's no discussing it. 2. Society does not give you free food or shelter or land to farm and tools to do it, nor means of transportation. (When it does, it's either conditional, or insufficient numbers, or both.) 3. By this you're forced to enter job market to keep alive, which forces you to enter into specific education path. 4. Even where education is free, point 2 holds. Where it's not, you are being subject to an additional whip of capitalism, debt. 5. Migrant jobs have evaporated in many places. As has cheap enough housing. You cannot also save enough to move in most cases, so you cannot even move in practice. If you do so, you're becoming a refugee, which is not a good thing at all. Even more so if you're bound further by different language or culture, or move to especially xenophobic place lured by possibilities. 6. If you have a family, you also need to consider them when moving. If you own property, perhaps inherited, you have to consider what to do with it as well, and you're taking a financial and existential risk. The support network you have (family, friends, connections) will likely not reach to the new area. 7. Enjoying a forced job is like praising your slave master for not beating you too often. Though some jobs have enjoyable elements, these are typically available to elite or lucky few.

Larrikin 6y ago

But why is it more reasonable to give a credit? The goal is to reduce the amount of people who are putting off major life decisions because they are deep in debt from society forcing them to get an expensive degree. The people who have gotten out from under that burden are no long bringing society down. I don't get a check from the unemployment office after the fact if they ever increase the amount of unemployment people get. Its just a benefit I did not get. I think the more reasonable thing would be to forgive debt AND find a solution to making sure nobody else has to suffer from crushing debt for education. Make community college free, heavily subsidize people who go to public colleges, etc.

berberous 6y ago
>> from society forcing them to get an expensive degree I am actually sympathetic to the fact that social pressure or other structural dynamics may encourage people to make bad choices, but they were not “forced”.
foogazi 6y ago
> from society forcing them to get an expensive degree. How does “society” force someone to get an expensive degree? It is always a choice
- happytoexplain 6y ago
  This is a pretty unrealistic position. Society also doesn't "force" you to get a job that doesn't make you happy. But speaking realistically, society forces people to do many things without using direct physicality or threats. Your position is common among "personal responsibility" absolutists, which, like most absolutism, doesn't really work.
  - foogazi 6y ago
    > Society also doesn't "force" you to get a job that doesn't make you happy. 1. Absolutely 2. What’s this about a job making you happy? > But speaking realistically, society forces people to do many things without using direct physicality or threats. I don’t get this line of thinking. I can come up with compulsory taxation, but you can always move to another society. What has society forced you to do?
    - AstralStorm 6y ago
      Before this gets too out of hand. 1. Nature forces you to eat and have shelter. There's no discussing it. 2. Society does not give you free food or shelter or land to farm and tools to do it, nor means of transportation. (When it does, it's either conditional, or insufficient numbers, or both.) 3. By this you're forced to enter job market to keep alive, which forces you to enter into specific education path. 4. Even where education is free, point 2 holds. Where it's not, you are being subject to an additional whip of capitalism, debt. 5. Migrant jobs have evaporated in many places. As has cheap enough housing. You cannot also save enough to move in most cases, so you cannot even move in practice. If you do so, you're becoming a refugee, which is not a good thing at all. Even more so if you're bound further by different language or culture, or move to especially xenophobic place lured by possibilities. 6. If you have a family, you also need to consider them when moving. If you own property, perhaps inherited, you have to consider what to do with it as well, and you're taking a financial and existential risk. The support network you have (family, friends, connections) will likely not reach to the new area. 7. Enjoying a forced job is like praising your slave master for not beating you too often. Though some jobs have enjoyable elements, these are typically available to elite or lucky few.