4 ms·

Is Germany really that reserved because of the last world war? I mean, I get that it was bad, but it's history. Everyone else who has a very similar history (e

by bserge 6y ago

Is Germany really that reserved because of the last world war? I mean, I get that it was bad, but it's history. Everyone else who has a very similar history (even though it's painted in a better light by the media) has moved on.

mschuster91 6y ago
Germany caused not one but two world wars and is, despite being beaten almost to death after ww2, once again the dominant power in the EU. Let's face it we usually get what we want even without having a competitive military - if we had there would not be much to stop us. I'm actually grateful that our leaders have been and still are mindful of that fact.
- rosmax_1337 6y ago
  I'll give you last word if you reply to this comment, since this discussion seems like something that generally doesn't belong on this site. But, Germany did not cause two world wars.
  - fakedang 6y ago
    Did I just imagine up a tyrannical despot who seized power from the democratic process, called himself Fuhrer, then went on to slowly acquire land from Czechoslovakia, Austria and Yugoslavia, before deciding to invade France, Benelux, Poland and a host of other countries? Or the time when the hot-tempered Kaiser couldn't keep it in his pants and wanted to test his new toys with the rest of his aristocrat buddies?
    - ungoog 6y ago
      France and Britain declared war on Germany during WW2, which effectively triggered a world war.
      - estaseuropano 6y ago
        It is quite a lot more complex than that. I'd say it is a stretch to argue that Germany was to blame for WW1 (post-WW1 Germany was forced to take the blame but the reality was a lot more complex). You can then also argue about the context/contribution the harsh treaty of Versailles made to WW2. But to not blame principally Germany/NSDAP/Hitler for WW2 after Germany marched into Poland is pretty absurd.
        redis_mlc 6y ago
        I study WW2, so I'll comment. WW2 is the name we use today, but there were really about 11 wars total. 1) Britain declared war on Germany as part of their mutual-defence pact with Poland, but after Germany invaded Poland. 2) FYI: Aggressor countries have rarely "declared war" before attacking for almost 2 centuries. Because, you know, element of surprise. So it's normal to be attacked with no declaration of war, but then to declare war on your attacker or in defense of your treaty partners. Like Pearl Harbor, where the Japanese attacked without declaring war, then the US declared war on Japan, then Germany declared war on the US as part of their treaty with Japan. The problem that Japan and Germany faced was you don't declare war on an enemy that you can't bomb, and who has 10x more oil than you do. Oops. So yes, Germany did start WW2. To be fair to the German people, they were used to monarchy/autocracy. Democracy in the 1930s was not looked upon as an entirely positive thing as it is today in the West. So they were fine going along with whoever the strongman was, similar to Russia and Putin today. > the harsh treaty of Versailles made to WW2 It actually wasn't harsh compared to previous treaties that favored Germany, although politicians find fig leaves for war convenient, and one can object to any reparations at all.
fakedang 6y ago
West Germany had been very proactive under the Adenauer years to abolish all forms of Nazism. In East Germany, the Soviets did that, albeit violently often, which is why there is a higher rate of Neo-Nazism in the east (apart from the usual issues such as poverty and unemployment).
- mschuster91 6y ago
  > In East Germany, the Soviets did that, albeit violently often, which is why there is a higher rate of Neo-Nazism in the east (apart from the usual issues such as poverty and unemployment). Sorry, that's wrong. Eastern (Communist) Germany painted itself as an "anti-fascist state by definition", but in reality there were awful lots of Neo-Nazis active in the GDR - and after the Mauerfall Western cadres only had to move in to find faithful people. It's estimated that there were 15.000 (!) Neo-Nazis at the time. See https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/die-ddr-und-ihre-neonazis-real-existierender.862.de.html?dram:article_id=460746 https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/die-ddr-und-ihre-neonazis-rea... or https://www.zeit.de/2012/08/DDR-Nazis https://www.zeit.de/2012/08/DDR-Nazis for more details. This "the DDR was antifascist and there were no Nazis there" nonsense is a huge part of why the neo-Nazi problem in the former GDR was overlooked until 2015ff with PEGIDA and other violent far right movements appearing (for many uninitiated) "out of thin air".
  - fakedang 6y ago
    I did not say the DDR was anti-fascist or something. But there was a concerted effort by the Soviets to purge all forms of Nazism actively - which effectively failed, as per the evidence you provide yourself. A large part of the population resented the Soviet rule and effectively turned to Fascism as a reprieve (something I thought was implied so I skipped mentioning it explicitly). The Soviets went, but Fascism was there to stay.

by bserge 6y ago

mschuster91 6y ago

Germany caused not one but two world wars and is, despite being beaten almost to death after ww2, once again the dominant power in the EU. Let's face it we usually get what we want even without having a competitive military - if we had there would not be much to stop us. I'm actually grateful that our leaders have been and still are mindful of that fact.

rosmax_1337 6y ago
I'll give you last word if you reply to this comment, since this discussion seems like something that generally doesn't belong on this site. But, Germany did not cause two world wars.
- fakedang 6y ago
  Did I just imagine up a tyrannical despot who seized power from the democratic process, called himself Fuhrer, then went on to slowly acquire land from Czechoslovakia, Austria and Yugoslavia, before deciding to invade France, Benelux, Poland and a host of other countries? Or the time when the hot-tempered Kaiser couldn't keep it in his pants and wanted to test his new toys with the rest of his aristocrat buddies?
  - ungoog 6y ago
    France and Britain declared war on Germany during WW2, which effectively triggered a world war.
    - estaseuropano 6y ago
      It is quite a lot more complex than that. I'd say it is a stretch to argue that Germany was to blame for WW1 (post-WW1 Germany was forced to take the blame but the reality was a lot more complex). You can then also argue about the context/contribution the harsh treaty of Versailles made to WW2. But to not blame principally Germany/NSDAP/Hitler for WW2 after Germany marched into Poland is pretty absurd.
      - redis_mlc 6y ago
        I study WW2, so I'll comment. WW2 is the name we use today, but there were really about 11 wars total. 1) Britain declared war on Germany as part of their mutual-defence pact with Poland, but after Germany invaded Poland. 2) FYI: Aggressor countries have rarely "declared war" before attacking for almost 2 centuries. Because, you know, element of surprise. So it's normal to be attacked with no declaration of war, but then to declare war on your attacker or in defense of your treaty partners. Like Pearl Harbor, where the Japanese attacked without declaring war, then the US declared war on Japan, then Germany declared war on the US as part of their treaty with Japan. The problem that Japan and Germany faced was you don't declare war on an enemy that you can't bomb, and who has 10x more oil than you do. Oops. So yes, Germany did start WW2. To be fair to the German people, they were used to monarchy/autocracy. Democracy in the 1930s was not looked upon as an entirely positive thing as it is today in the West. So they were fine going along with whoever the strongman was, similar to Russia and Putin today. > the harsh treaty of Versailles made to WW2 It actually wasn't harsh compared to previous treaties that favored Germany, although politicians find fig leaves for war convenient, and one can object to any reparations at all.

fakedang 6y ago

West Germany had been very proactive under the Adenauer years to abolish all forms of Nazism. In East Germany, the Soviets did that, albeit violently often, which is why there is a higher rate of Neo-Nazism in the east (apart from the usual issues such as poverty and unemployment).

mschuster91 6y ago
> In East Germany, the Soviets did that, albeit violently often, which is why there is a higher rate of Neo-Nazism in the east (apart from the usual issues such as poverty and unemployment). Sorry, that's wrong. Eastern (Communist) Germany painted itself as an "anti-fascist state by definition", but in reality there were awful lots of Neo-Nazis active in the GDR - and after the Mauerfall Western cadres only had to move in to find faithful people. It's estimated that there were 15.000 (!) Neo-Nazis at the time. See https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/die-ddr-und-ihre-neonazis-real-existierender.862.de.html?dram:article_id=460746 https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/die-ddr-und-ihre-neonazis-rea... or https://www.zeit.de/2012/08/DDR-Nazis https://www.zeit.de/2012/08/DDR-Nazis for more details. This "the DDR was antifascist and there were no Nazis there" nonsense is a huge part of why the neo-Nazi problem in the former GDR was overlooked until 2015ff with PEGIDA and other violent far right movements appearing (for many uninitiated) "out of thin air".
- fakedang 6y ago
  I did not say the DDR was anti-fascist or something. But there was a concerted effort by the Soviets to purge all forms of Nazism actively - which effectively failed, as per the evidence you provide yourself. A large part of the population resented the Soviet rule and effectively turned to Fascism as a reprieve (something I thought was implied so I skipped mentioning it explicitly). The Soviets went, but Fascism was there to stay.