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When everyone was praising the billionaire who paid for the student loans of that graduating class a few years ago (who by the way is under investigation for ta

When everyone was praising the billionaire who paid for the student loans of that graduating class a few years ago (who by the way is under investigation for tax evasion), I raised the point that this might not be seen as fair by everyone and I was immediately criticized by some friends. I cautioned that it's fine for a private individual to do whatever he wants, but watch out if you apply this some day to the government. Imagine how you would feel if you were from a family that had scrimped and saved to send you to college, you worked night jobs, etc. Only to find that at the end everyone else who had taken out loans had them forgiven (basically). What incentive is there to sacrifice or think ahead if this is what will happen at the end? I was panned for thinking such selfish thoughts at the act of someone so generous. I think it would be more reasonable to give every student a $ gift at that point. Watch out, mind you, if our government gets into the business of doing this. You'd better double check whether you think it's an absolute good thing. When you pay someone's debts, you assume some participation into the choices they've made, or some small tacit approval of their choices. And when you forgive debt, it implicitly chooses some people over others. People who made what can objectively be called responsible choices to save and not take out debt will not be happy with what those who are less responsible receive. Are we only going to do this for current students? Are we going to do this for every student to come? What happens when a person knows that whatever debt they take out will be forgiven? Think to the unintended consequences of what you thought were just good intentions. If your level of logic is "what could be so wrong about helping people get out of hardship", then maybe you shouldn't be in the business of administering / making economic policy...

happytoexplain 6y ago
>Imagine how you would feel if you were from a family that had scrimped and saved to send you to college, you worked night jobs, etc. Only to find that at the end everyone else who had taken out loans had them forgiven (basically) I think you might be surprised by how many people in that situation would be happy for those who benefited, even at the same time that they are upset that they landed on the other side of the timegate of the policy. Requiring "missed out" scenarios to not occur for any policy like this is too burdensome to society, and too conciliatory to the selfish who would rather the policy not happen at all if they weren't able to benefit from it.
- supernova87a 6y ago
  I think you might be surprised, as a practical matter, that many people in the world are not happy when their prudent choices are invalidated by a change in the government policy in favor of others who took the opposite choice as you. And that they be called "selfish" for thinking so. People working and making material sacrifices over their lifetimes only to see those burdens lifted for others are not a small edge case to be brushed away. How about if I put it in a HN-relevant case (and to paint it in more obviously judgemental terms to make the point). You and a colleague are given a 2-week deadline to deliver some code. It's a tough deadline. You are diligent and work day and night, overtime, missing your kids birthday and having your spouse mad at you, to meet the deadline and deliver your part. Your colleague has been a low performer consistently, asks your help to finish the work, doesn't actually finish it by the due date. Your boss, at the delivery meeting, says, actually, this was just a motivational exercise to get us to practice coding and teamwork, and didn't really count after all. She won't even bother looking at your work because it was just for your personal development. We're a team. How do you feel? How about we run that again the next 2 weeks. What are you going to do? Feeling good for your colleague who was about to get in some trouble, but luckily it all turned out ok? Your wife and kid will be glad for that I'm sure. And aside from all that, my points about the unintended incentives of such a policy remain.
  - cdolan 6y ago
    Best comment yet. Take my upvote.
  - thomastjeffery 6y ago
    > How do you feel? How does that take higher precedence than the literal financial situation of millions of people? > Your colleague has been a low performer consistently You are painting a very different picture here. People by and large don't get into unrecoverable student loan debt because they are low performers. Many of them achieve excellent grades. Their work is simply not compensated. So here in your metaphor, you have made a demon out of the victim. > How about we run that again the next 2 weeks. What are you going to do? Again, this metaphor has strayed from the reality it is meant to compare to. Student loan forgiveness isn't a perpetual system. It's an N time deal. N increases during the time it takes to overhaul our failed higher education system. Because we are motivated to keep N low, we are motivated to quickly overhaul our failed higher education system. > Your boss, at the delivery meeting, says, actually, this was just a motivational exercise to get us to practice coding and teamwork Notice how even in your metaphor, you are victimizing your teammate when it is clearly your boss who is at fault. That part of the metaphor tracts quite well with reality. In reality, you are blaming the student when the universities and stagnant wages are to blame. > And that they be called "selfish" for thinking so. Indeed it might be.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
thomastjeffery 6y ago
> When you pay someone's debts, you assume some participation into the choices they've made So let's consider the choice to go to college. When I was growing up, I was told over and over again that if I got an Associates Degree that I would be practically guaranteed to higher wages. I was told that if I got a Bachelor's Degree, I would see higher wages still, and even higher for a Master's, PHD, etc. Everyone I know has been taught this from an early age. We were taught that if we work hard and better ourselves that we will see a real monetary result. We were taught that that is the American dream. Millions of people believed that message. That message ended up being a lie. Millions of Americans are now living in debt and can't declare bankruptcy on their student loans. Don't these people deserve a solution? What was their fault? Working hard to better themselves and society? > Think to the unintended consequences of what you thought were just good intentions. If your level of logic is "what could be so wrong about helping people get out of hardship", then maybe you shouldn't be in the business of administering / making economic policy... What are your "good intentions"? Preserving the very unrelenting system of debt that got us here? If your level of logic is "what might be immoral about helping people get out of hardship", then you are clearly not motivated to help people get out of hardship. Your motivation is instead to apply a strict moral rule over those who are in need. > Are we only going to do this for current students? Are we going to do this for every student to come? What happens when a person knows that whatever debt they take out will be forgiven? That's a good question. How long is it going to take to remove this structure of promised benefit leading to inescapable debt? That is how long we ought to remove that burden. That also gives us a clear motivation to overhaul our clearly broken higher education system. Is your fear that "a person will know that whatever debt they take out will be forgiven", or is it "a debtor will know whatever debt they impose will be forgiven"? We need only replace the word "forgiven" with "recovered", and we see that this is already the system we have in place. People get into student loan debt honestly believing that higher education will lead them to the higher wages needed to pay that debt back. Universities are guaranteed to be paid by students, whether via recoverable debt or not, because bankruptcy is not on the table. > Think to the unintended consequences of what you thought were just good intentions. Exactly. If your good intention is to prevent the taxpayer from taking the burden of a broken system, your unintended consequence is millions of people living with unrecoverable debt, and the perpetuation of that same broken system.
hprotagonist 6y ago
> Imagine how you would feel if you were from a family that had scrimped and saved to send you to college, you worked night jobs, etc. Only to find that at the end everyone else who had taken out loans had them forgiven (basically). An old, old complaint. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Workers_in_the_Vineyard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Workers_in_the_... ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’ “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
- ceceron 6y ago
  This is not a proper analogy. The government money comes from taxes, they are not doing charity out of their funds.
- supernova87a 6y ago
  An old old complaint, yes -- meaning that it diminishes the legitimacy of the complaint and we should have gotten over this schoolchild thinking years ago? Or that it's a fundamental feeling in human beings and we'd better be careful to take it into account?
  - hprotagonist 6y ago
    “warning, haters are gonna hate” is always worth keeping in mind, of course. then you tell these sorts of stories and hope that people admit that “i got mine so screw you” is a bad way to live. it does not mean that student loan forgiveness can’t happen, or that societies are somehow forbidden from acting altruistically because people are going to have this feeling. It does mean you need to be ready for it. For myself, my undergrad degree cost about $250k, and nobody gave me a scholarship, and i am overjoyed if someone else doesn’t have to play that idiotic game.
- foogazi 6y ago
Larrikin 6y ago
The logical conclusion to your argument is that government should never do anything to help the citizenry unless it benefits every single person. Most people are not vindictive against people who received help. As an example there were people who lost their jobs during this pandemic and I was lucky enough not to. The people who lost their jobs received an extra 600 dollars on top of their normal unemployment. This benefited society as a whole since jobs were very scarce for certain groups and kept a lot of people from having problems. If I ever lose my job and take unemployment I won't be upset at those people from receiving an extra benefit during this time period and wish they had been made to suffer instead. I'm also not angry at the local government for building a library on the other side of the city that I will almost certainly never go to. Bringing it back to these scrimping and saving people, most people save money to reduce their loan burden after college. Its a vanishing small number of people who are not rich or receiving large scholarships that pay for college completely out of pocket
- supernova87a 6y ago
  Nope, I didn't say that we should not help ever unless it benefits everyone. I'm saying that when you implicitly pick a group to help over others, you'd better be careful about the incentives and signals it gives on what you want to happen next time. As I said, it would be more reasonable to give everyone a credit, not forgive debt.
  - Larrikin 6y ago
    But why is it more reasonable to give a credit? The goal is to reduce the amount of people who are putting off major life decisions because they are deep in debt from society forcing them to get an expensive degree. The people who have gotten out from under that burden are no long bringing society down. I don't get a check from the unemployment office after the fact if they ever increase the amount of unemployment people get. Its just a benefit I did not get. I think the more reasonable thing would be to forgive debt AND find a solution to making sure nobody else has to suffer from crushing debt for education. Make community college free, heavily subsidize people who go to public colleges, etc.
perlpimp 6y ago
Playing time travel with dire problems at hand is some kind snobbery. There are gradations and people for example being crushed by non-bankruptcy discharageable debt vs some people having their feelings hurt is exactly where epathy is coming in. Those who did well by not having student debt are better that those who ended up in that situation.
ruined 6y ago
if we stop the trolley now, it would be unfair to everyone that has already been crushed

happytoexplain 6y ago

>Imagine how you would feel if you were from a family that had scrimped and saved to send you to college, you worked night jobs, etc. Only to find that at the end everyone else who had taken out loans had them forgiven (basically) I think you might be surprised by how many people in that situation would be happy for those who benefited, even at the same time that they are upset that they landed on the other side of the timegate of the policy. Requiring "missed out" scenarios to not occur for any policy like this is too burdensome to society, and too conciliatory to the selfish who would rather the policy not happen at all if they weren't able to benefit from it.

supernova87a 6y ago
I think you might be surprised, as a practical matter, that many people in the world are not happy when their prudent choices are invalidated by a change in the government policy in favor of others who took the opposite choice as you. And that they be called "selfish" for thinking so. People working and making material sacrifices over their lifetimes only to see those burdens lifted for others are not a small edge case to be brushed away. How about if I put it in a HN-relevant case (and to paint it in more obviously judgemental terms to make the point). You and a colleague are given a 2-week deadline to deliver some code. It's a tough deadline. You are diligent and work day and night, overtime, missing your kids birthday and having your spouse mad at you, to meet the deadline and deliver your part. Your colleague has been a low performer consistently, asks your help to finish the work, doesn't actually finish it by the due date. Your boss, at the delivery meeting, says, actually, this was just a motivational exercise to get us to practice coding and teamwork, and didn't really count after all. She won't even bother looking at your work because it was just for your personal development. We're a team. How do you feel? How about we run that again the next 2 weeks. What are you going to do? Feeling good for your colleague who was about to get in some trouble, but luckily it all turned out ok? Your wife and kid will be glad for that I'm sure. And aside from all that, my points about the unintended incentives of such a policy remain.
- cdolan 6y ago
  Best comment yet. Take my upvote.
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  > How do you feel? How does that take higher precedence than the literal financial situation of millions of people? > Your colleague has been a low performer consistently You are painting a very different picture here. People by and large don't get into unrecoverable student loan debt because they are low performers. Many of them achieve excellent grades. Their work is simply not compensated. So here in your metaphor, you have made a demon out of the victim. > How about we run that again the next 2 weeks. What are you going to do? Again, this metaphor has strayed from the reality it is meant to compare to. Student loan forgiveness isn't a perpetual system. It's an N time deal. N increases during the time it takes to overhaul our failed higher education system. Because we are motivated to keep N low, we are motivated to quickly overhaul our failed higher education system. > Your boss, at the delivery meeting, says, actually, this was just a motivational exercise to get us to practice coding and teamwork Notice how even in your metaphor, you are victimizing your teammate when it is clearly your boss who is at fault. That part of the metaphor tracts quite well with reality. In reality, you are blaming the student when the universities and stagnant wages are to blame. > And that they be called "selfish" for thinking so. Indeed it might be.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

thomastjeffery 6y ago

> When you pay someone's debts, you assume some participation into the choices they've made So let's consider the choice to go to college. When I was growing up, I was told over and over again that if I got an Associates Degree that I would be practically guaranteed to higher wages. I was told that if I got a Bachelor's Degree, I would see higher wages still, and even higher for a Master's, PHD, etc. Everyone I know has been taught this from an early age. We were taught that if we work hard and better ourselves that we will see a real monetary result. We were taught that that is the American dream. Millions of people believed that message. That message ended up being a lie. Millions of Americans are now living in debt and can't declare bankruptcy on their student loans. Don't these people deserve a solution? What was their fault? Working hard to better themselves and society? > Think to the unintended consequences of what you thought were just good intentions. If your level of logic is "what could be so wrong about helping people get out of hardship", then maybe you shouldn't be in the business of administering / making economic policy... What are your "good intentions"? Preserving the very unrelenting system of debt that got us here? If your level of logic is "what might be immoral about helping people get out of hardship", then you are clearly not motivated to help people get out of hardship. Your motivation is instead to apply a strict moral rule over those who are in need. > Are we only going to do this for current students? Are we going to do this for every student to come? What happens when a person knows that whatever debt they take out will be forgiven? That's a good question. How long is it going to take to remove this structure of promised benefit leading to inescapable debt? That is how long we ought to remove that burden. That also gives us a clear motivation to overhaul our clearly broken higher education system. Is your fear that "a person will know that whatever debt they take out will be forgiven", or is it "a debtor will know whatever debt they impose will be forgiven"? We need only replace the word "forgiven" with "recovered", and we see that this is already the system we have in place. People get into student loan debt honestly believing that higher education will lead them to the higher wages needed to pay that debt back. Universities are guaranteed to be paid by students, whether via recoverable debt or not, because bankruptcy is not on the table. > Think to the unintended consequences of what you thought were just good intentions. Exactly. If your good intention is to prevent the taxpayer from taking the burden of a broken system, your unintended consequence is millions of people living with unrecoverable debt, and the perpetuation of that same broken system.

hprotagonist 6y ago

> Imagine how you would feel if you were from a family that had scrimped and saved to send you to college, you worked night jobs, etc. Only to find that at the end everyone else who had taken out loans had them forgiven (basically). An old, old complaint. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Workers_in_the_Vineyard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Workers_in_the_... ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’ “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

ceceron 6y ago
This is not a proper analogy. The government money comes from taxes, they are not doing charity out of their funds.
supernova87a 6y ago
An old old complaint, yes -- meaning that it diminishes the legitimacy of the complaint and we should have gotten over this schoolchild thinking years ago? Or that it's a fundamental feeling in human beings and we'd better be careful to take it into account?
- hprotagonist 6y ago
  “warning, haters are gonna hate” is always worth keeping in mind, of course. then you tell these sorts of stories and hope that people admit that “i got mine so screw you” is a bad way to live. it does not mean that student loan forgiveness can’t happen, or that societies are somehow forbidden from acting altruistically because people are going to have this feeling. It does mean you need to be ready for it. For myself, my undergrad degree cost about $250k, and nobody gave me a scholarship, and i am overjoyed if someone else doesn’t have to play that idiotic game.
foogazi 6y ago

Larrikin 6y ago

The logical conclusion to your argument is that government should never do anything to help the citizenry unless it benefits every single person. Most people are not vindictive against people who received help. As an example there were people who lost their jobs during this pandemic and I was lucky enough not to. The people who lost their jobs received an extra 600 dollars on top of their normal unemployment. This benefited society as a whole since jobs were very scarce for certain groups and kept a lot of people from having problems. If I ever lose my job and take unemployment I won't be upset at those people from receiving an extra benefit during this time period and wish they had been made to suffer instead. I'm also not angry at the local government for building a library on the other side of the city that I will almost certainly never go to. Bringing it back to these scrimping and saving people, most people save money to reduce their loan burden after college. Its a vanishing small number of people who are not rich or receiving large scholarships that pay for college completely out of pocket

supernova87a 6y ago
Nope, I didn't say that we should not help ever unless it benefits everyone. I'm saying that when you implicitly pick a group to help over others, you'd better be careful about the incentives and signals it gives on what you want to happen next time. As I said, it would be more reasonable to give everyone a credit, not forgive debt.
- Larrikin 6y ago
  But why is it more reasonable to give a credit? The goal is to reduce the amount of people who are putting off major life decisions because they are deep in debt from society forcing them to get an expensive degree. The people who have gotten out from under that burden are no long bringing society down. I don't get a check from the unemployment office after the fact if they ever increase the amount of unemployment people get. Its just a benefit I did not get. I think the more reasonable thing would be to forgive debt AND find a solution to making sure nobody else has to suffer from crushing debt for education. Make community college free, heavily subsidize people who go to public colleges, etc.

perlpimp 6y ago

Playing time travel with dire problems at hand is some kind snobbery. There are gradations and people for example being crushed by non-bankruptcy discharageable debt vs some people having their feelings hurt is exactly where epathy is coming in. Those who did well by not having student debt are better that those who ended up in that situation.

ruined 6y ago

if we stop the trolley now, it would be unfair to everyone that has already been crushed