6 ms·

This is profoundly depressing. The fact that an EU defence conference is being held... on Zoom, is truly a microcosm of what has been the strategic policy of th

This is profoundly depressing. The fact that an EU defence conference is being held... on Zoom, is truly a microcosm of what has been the strategic policy of the EU for the past 20-30 years. We have sold off our independence, out advantages economic and otherwise, for pennies. For minuscule short-term gains, we have sold off our industry, our tech, to a hostile and totalitarian government. Well when I say "we" I mean private enterprise, but also the governments who were supposed to be raking in (though as one German economist said, government and private enterprise are pretty much one and the same). It will come soon a time (in fact, it's pretty much here already) where China calls the shots over us. "Obey, or no microchips for you. In fact, no manufacturing of any kind." Thoroughly depressing.

Moodles 6y ago
The Zoom security debate has been hashed to death on HN lately, but Webex for example patched some RCEs only a couple weeks ago. I’m not fully convinced Zoom is objectively less secure than all the other alternatives these days. They just get a lot more attention for it. Besides, if the EU defence conference had an open URL or weak password that issue would apply regardless of Zoom, Webex, etc.
- rscho 6y ago
  The point of GP is that Zoom is american software, regardless of any particular issue related to the app itself. Which IMO, is a very crucial point. A EU security conference should use EU software, and as little foreign stuff as possible. Otherwise, it's just theater (and it currently really is just that!).
  - Moodles 6y ago
    All of Zoom’s security team is based in the US to be fair. I don’t really agree in general that the X-conference should use X-software.
    - rscho 6y ago
      Well, if you are using foreign software for sensitive stuff, then you should at least be able to fully review the source and build the app yourself. > All of Zoom’s security team is based in the US That's the point. Thinking that the US are truthful and honest allies of the EU is plain laughable.
      - Moodles 6y ago
        They’re also all using Apple products, for example.
        rscho 6y ago
        Yes, much to the EU population's dismay.
        Moodles 6y ago
        I think it's way too paranoid and impractical to seriously have every single thing homegrown. No Zoom, no Microsoft, no Apple, no Google, no Intel or ARM chips. It's just not going to work. It's not even clear to me that would be more secure. Okay, so you've successfully defended against the threat of the US government pressuring those companies to add backdoors to spy on your conference. Now you have to make sure your homegrown software and hardware in secure. Also the EU is multiple countries with competing interests anyway. Come on. We have to be a little more practical in the real-world I think.
    - numpad0 6y ago
      Kinda cool if defense conferences were done using some defense apps that works, so that in case of a Soviet or Romulan invasion or whatever, military generals and SecDefs could just open their defense laptop and resume on defense discussions, though granted the world don’t have runaway Soviet threats anymore.
      - EVdotIO 6y ago
        It's about sovereign interest, and if you rely on foreign assistance to run state, you are a vassal at best. Last time I checked, Russia is still holding onto annexed land in Ukraine, and there is a proxy war in Yemen, the Korean peninsula is prepared for a full blown conflict at any moment, hostilities between India and Pakistan, and on, and on, and on, and on. There are absolutely ambitious geopolitical interests at play willing to use brutal force as a means to obtain their goals at costs most people cannot comprehend. It's probably advantageous to have your own tech and verticals for building it domestically. I mean it's not like securing uranium deposits.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    > The point of GP is that Zoom is american software, Wait. Isn't Zoom Chinese software?
- jankotek 6y ago
  But it should not matter how secure chatting software is. This sort of stuff should be on offline VPM, separated from normal internet. If officials are using their personal devices for this....
john_minsk 6y ago
It is not that simple. The minute China does it - they stand alone. The whole premise of outsourcing manufacturing to China will die. No one will trust them to do it. In my opinion they won’t do it
- ben_w 6y ago
  With ~20% of the world’s population, more than the entire combined population of the G7, they might be able to stand alone. They may not explicitly desire standing alone, but I wouldn’t bet against them deciding that’s the better option, nor would I bet against them using or threatening to use their manufacturing capability to put pressure on certain policy objectives. It’s not like other countries don’t use economic impact as a carrot/stick to achieve policy objectives.
  - bserge 6y ago
    Imo, it's because they have such a huge population that they can't stand alone. They simply don't have enough resources. And unlike the US, they're surrounded by current and potential enemies.
- toyg 6y ago
  The setup of China being the world’s workshop is temporary. Chinese leadership is using foreign capital to bootstrap their internal market. They will be self-sufficient in less than a generation.
  - 737maxtw 6y ago
    And, perhaps more importantly, they are using all of the monies to start getting their own foothold in other continents. IOW they are entering their own modern expansionist phase.
kyriakos 6y ago
thats not zoom, its Pexip https://www.pexip.com/ https://www.pexip.com/
AsyncAwait 6y ago
> It will come soon a time (in fact, it's pretty much here already) where China calls the shots over us. The U.S. already does that. Why is that any better?
- smabie 6y ago
  Would you rather have the US tell you what to do or China?
  - bloodorange 6y ago
    While there may be some negative news coverage of China's actions, most of them are within or at their borders. I have yet to see recent news of them bombing other countries, kidnapping people from around the world and destabilising regions around the world. In truth, I'd rather have neither of them bullying others but if I had to choose, I think the less violent bully is a better choice.
    - dice1-6 6y ago
      They do intimidate people abroad Canada: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-china-ramps-up-bullying-and-intimidation-tactics-in-canada-report/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-china-ramps... same in Australia https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-19/fake-chinese-police-cars-spotted-in-adelaide-and-perth/11426850 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-19/fake-chinese-police-c... kidnapping abroad (Thailand): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gui_Minhai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gui_Minhai killing abroad (Indonesia): https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-45976946 https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-45976946 (Australia) https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-25/asio-says-its-taking-allegations-of-suspicious-death-serious/11733532 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-25/asio-says-its-taking-...
  - AsyncAwait 6y ago
    Neither. I would like there however to be a credible power to challenge U.S. policy, perhaps China even, so that it's hard for both sides to get aggressive policies implemented internationally as there's credible pushback. Right now, there's practically no pushback on crippling U.S. sanctions against Iran or Venezuela for example.

Moodles 6y ago

The Zoom security debate has been hashed to death on HN lately, but Webex for example patched some RCEs only a couple weeks ago. I’m not fully convinced Zoom is objectively less secure than all the other alternatives these days. They just get a lot more attention for it. Besides, if the EU defence conference had an open URL or weak password that issue would apply regardless of Zoom, Webex, etc.

rscho 6y ago
The point of GP is that Zoom is american software, regardless of any particular issue related to the app itself. Which IMO, is a very crucial point. A EU security conference should use EU software, and as little foreign stuff as possible. Otherwise, it's just theater (and it currently really is just that!).
- Moodles 6y ago
  All of Zoom’s security team is based in the US to be fair. I don’t really agree in general that the X-conference should use X-software.
  - rscho 6y ago
    Well, if you are using foreign software for sensitive stuff, then you should at least be able to fully review the source and build the app yourself. > All of Zoom’s security team is based in the US That's the point. Thinking that the US are truthful and honest allies of the EU is plain laughable.
    - Moodles 6y ago
      They’re also all using Apple products, for example.
      - rscho 6y ago
        Yes, much to the EU population's dismay.
        Moodles 6y ago
        I think it's way too paranoid and impractical to seriously have every single thing homegrown. No Zoom, no Microsoft, no Apple, no Google, no Intel or ARM chips. It's just not going to work. It's not even clear to me that would be more secure. Okay, so you've successfully defended against the threat of the US government pressuring those companies to add backdoors to spy on your conference. Now you have to make sure your homegrown software and hardware in secure. Also the EU is multiple countries with competing interests anyway. Come on. We have to be a little more practical in the real-world I think.
  - numpad0 6y ago
    Kinda cool if defense conferences were done using some defense apps that works, so that in case of a Soviet or Romulan invasion or whatever, military generals and SecDefs could just open their defense laptop and resume on defense discussions, though granted the world don’t have runaway Soviet threats anymore.
    - EVdotIO 6y ago
      It's about sovereign interest, and if you rely on foreign assistance to run state, you are a vassal at best. Last time I checked, Russia is still holding onto annexed land in Ukraine, and there is a proxy war in Yemen, the Korean peninsula is prepared for a full blown conflict at any moment, hostilities between India and Pakistan, and on, and on, and on, and on. There are absolutely ambitious geopolitical interests at play willing to use brutal force as a means to obtain their goals at costs most people cannot comprehend. It's probably advantageous to have your own tech and verticals for building it domestically. I mean it's not like securing uranium deposits.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  > The point of GP is that Zoom is american software, Wait. Isn't Zoom Chinese software?
jankotek 6y ago
But it should not matter how secure chatting software is. This sort of stuff should be on offline VPM, separated from normal internet. If officials are using their personal devices for this....

john_minsk 6y ago

It is not that simple. The minute China does it - they stand alone. The whole premise of outsourcing manufacturing to China will die. No one will trust them to do it. In my opinion they won’t do it

ben_w 6y ago
With ~20% of the world’s population, more than the entire combined population of the G7, they might be able to stand alone. They may not explicitly desire standing alone, but I wouldn’t bet against them deciding that’s the better option, nor would I bet against them using or threatening to use their manufacturing capability to put pressure on certain policy objectives. It’s not like other countries don’t use economic impact as a carrot/stick to achieve policy objectives.
- bserge 6y ago
  Imo, it's because they have such a huge population that they can't stand alone. They simply don't have enough resources. And unlike the US, they're surrounded by current and potential enemies.
toyg 6y ago
The setup of China being the world’s workshop is temporary. Chinese leadership is using foreign capital to bootstrap their internal market. They will be self-sufficient in less than a generation.
- 737maxtw 6y ago
  And, perhaps more importantly, they are using all of the monies to start getting their own foothold in other continents. IOW they are entering their own modern expansionist phase.

kyriakos 6y ago

thats not zoom, its Pexip https://www.pexip.com/ https://www.pexip.com/

AsyncAwait 6y ago

> It will come soon a time (in fact, it's pretty much here already) where China calls the shots over us. The U.S. already does that. Why is that any better?

smabie 6y ago
Would you rather have the US tell you what to do or China?
- bloodorange 6y ago
  While there may be some negative news coverage of China's actions, most of them are within or at their borders. I have yet to see recent news of them bombing other countries, kidnapping people from around the world and destabilising regions around the world. In truth, I'd rather have neither of them bullying others but if I had to choose, I think the less violent bully is a better choice.
  - dice1-6 6y ago
    They do intimidate people abroad Canada: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-china-ramps-up-bullying-and-intimidation-tactics-in-canada-report/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-china-ramps... same in Australia https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-19/fake-chinese-police-cars-spotted-in-adelaide-and-perth/11426850 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-19/fake-chinese-police-c... kidnapping abroad (Thailand): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gui_Minhai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gui_Minhai killing abroad (Indonesia): https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-45976946 https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-45976946 (Australia) https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-25/asio-says-its-taking-allegations-of-suspicious-death-serious/11733532 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-25/asio-says-its-taking-...
- AsyncAwait 6y ago
  Neither. I would like there however to be a credible power to challenge U.S. policy, perhaps China even, so that it's hard for both sides to get aggressive policies implemented internationally as there's credible pushback. Right now, there's practically no pushback on crippling U.S. sanctions against Iran or Venezuela for example.