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> They don't necessarily have control over their disorder, and are unable to change themselves alone. As someone who has dealt with serious, chronic health iss

> They don't necessarily have control over their disorder, and are unable to change themselves alone. As someone who has dealt with serious, chronic health issues for a decade, I truly hate this attitude. I don't necessarily have full control over my health issues, but I'll be damned if you tell me I am unable to take actions to change myself and my situation. Yes, I much prefer messages that emphasize my personal agency, which your well-intentioned message actively denies. This is a tight-rope to walk: sick people have limitations and one should acknowledge them, but repeatedly asserting their utter helplessness is also a form of shaming and encourages them to stop trying.

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
No one is encouraging sick people to stop trying. They're trying to explain to relatively healthy and privileged people that blaming sick people for trying and failing is extremely unlikely to help them.
boomboomsubban 6y ago
>As someone who has dealt with serious, chronic health issues for a decade, I truly hate this attitude Do your chronic health issues alter the way your mind operates? If you believe that some external agent is inserting thoughts into your mind, how do you take control of such a situation? That's an extreme example, but such issues are common with mental disorders. When your mind itself is ill, willpower alone doesn't necessarily cut it.
- smallnamespace 6y ago
  My health issues came along with significant cognitive effects, ones that significantly affected my career. I can't speak towards schizophrenia specifically, but you work through mental health like any other obstacle: if it turns out to be an impassable mountain, then go around it. This is what I hear in GGP's message, and it strongly resonates with my own experience.
  - nonbirithm 6y ago
    One problem is some mental illnesses, like schizophrenia, can cause the victim to believe they are not ill under any circumstance, and because of that they will refuse treatment. What can be done to work around self-deception?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    First, GGP? Can you imagine your situation being a little worse, so that no matter how hard you tried you couldn't find a path around it? Some people will end up in untenable situations, if you want a clearcut example consider a coma patient.
    - smallnamespace 6y ago
      Great-grand-parent, to whom you were responding. A couple of thoughts: of course some people will be in a hole so deep they cannot dig themselves out. But I suspect that is rarer than you expect (look at how we went from mental illness in general, to schizophrenia, now to coma patients). Unless you’re intimately familiar with someone’s situation, how can you judge? I’ve found it more helpful to focus on how one can succeed, whether for myself or loved ones.
      - boomboomsubban 6y ago
        >But I suspect that is rarer than you expect (look at how we went from mental illness in general, to schizophrenia, now to coma patients). I think it's relatively common for people with mental illness to end up in a situation they themselves can't recover from, and my examples were hyperbolic as you seemed to deny the very existence of such people. They generally recover with help from those close to them, medical experts, and government support. >Unless you’re intimately familiar with someone’s situation, how can you judge? I don't need intimacy with anyone's situation, all I said was that some portion of the 30,000 incidents of mental illness could not control their disorders and would need help. >I’ve found it more helpful to focus on how one can succeed, whether for myself or loved ones I'm guessing my post was misunderstood, as here you seem to be trying to help others rather than forcing them to accomplish it by willpower alone.

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago

No one is encouraging sick people to stop trying. They're trying to explain to relatively healthy and privileged people that blaming sick people for trying and failing is extremely unlikely to help them.

boomboomsubban 6y ago

>As someone who has dealt with serious, chronic health issues for a decade, I truly hate this attitude Do your chronic health issues alter the way your mind operates? If you believe that some external agent is inserting thoughts into your mind, how do you take control of such a situation? That's an extreme example, but such issues are common with mental disorders. When your mind itself is ill, willpower alone doesn't necessarily cut it.

smallnamespace 6y ago
My health issues came along with significant cognitive effects, ones that significantly affected my career. I can't speak towards schizophrenia specifically, but you work through mental health like any other obstacle: if it turns out to be an impassable mountain, then go around it. This is what I hear in GGP's message, and it strongly resonates with my own experience.
- nonbirithm 6y ago
  One problem is some mental illnesses, like schizophrenia, can cause the victim to believe they are not ill under any circumstance, and because of that they will refuse treatment. What can be done to work around self-deception?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  First, GGP? Can you imagine your situation being a little worse, so that no matter how hard you tried you couldn't find a path around it? Some people will end up in untenable situations, if you want a clearcut example consider a coma patient.
  - smallnamespace 6y ago
    Great-grand-parent, to whom you were responding. A couple of thoughts: of course some people will be in a hole so deep they cannot dig themselves out. But I suspect that is rarer than you expect (look at how we went from mental illness in general, to schizophrenia, now to coma patients). Unless you’re intimately familiar with someone’s situation, how can you judge? I’ve found it more helpful to focus on how one can succeed, whether for myself or loved ones.
    - boomboomsubban 6y ago
      >But I suspect that is rarer than you expect (look at how we went from mental illness in general, to schizophrenia, now to coma patients). I think it's relatively common for people with mental illness to end up in a situation they themselves can't recover from, and my examples were hyperbolic as you seemed to deny the very existence of such people. They generally recover with help from those close to them, medical experts, and government support. >Unless you’re intimately familiar with someone’s situation, how can you judge? I don't need intimacy with anyone's situation, all I said was that some portion of the 30,000 incidents of mental illness could not control their disorders and would need help. >I’ve found it more helpful to focus on how one can succeed, whether for myself or loved ones I'm guessing my post was misunderstood, as here you seem to be trying to help others rather than forcing them to accomplish it by willpower alone.