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I don't understand why people think I'm against helping people. I'm not. I'm not trying to shame anyone. I'm simply saying, no matter your situation, do the be

I don't understand why people think I'm against helping people. I'm not. I'm not trying to shame anyone. I'm simply saying, no matter your situation, do the best you can because that's what you have control over. Also, it's easier to change yourself, than to change the world. I mean if you're fighting to change the world, more power to you. I hope you succeed and make the world a fairer place.

boomboomsubban 6y ago
>I'm simply saying, no matter your situation, do the best you can because that's what you have control over. Also, it's easier to change yourself, than to change the world Again, you're telling this to people with mental disorders like schizophrenia. They don't necessarily have control over their disorder, and are unable to change themselves alone. This is why it seems like you're shaming people. You both belittled their issues and are telling them to just get over them, like they haven't been trying all along.
- smallnamespace 6y ago
  > They don't necessarily have control over their disorder, and are unable to change themselves alone. As someone who has dealt with serious, chronic health issues for a decade, I truly hate this attitude. I don't necessarily have full control over my health issues, but I'll be damned if you tell me I am unable to take actions to change myself and my situation. Yes, I much prefer messages that emphasize my personal agency, which your well-intentioned message actively denies. This is a tight-rope to walk: sick people have limitations and one should acknowledge them, but repeatedly asserting their utter helplessness is also a form of shaming and encourages them to stop trying.
  - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
    No one is encouraging sick people to stop trying. They're trying to explain to relatively healthy and privileged people that blaming sick people for trying and failing is extremely unlikely to help them.
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    >As someone who has dealt with serious, chronic health issues for a decade, I truly hate this attitude Do your chronic health issues alter the way your mind operates? If you believe that some external agent is inserting thoughts into your mind, how do you take control of such a situation? That's an extreme example, but such issues are common with mental disorders. When your mind itself is ill, willpower alone doesn't necessarily cut it.
    - smallnamespace 6y ago
      My health issues came along with significant cognitive effects, ones that significantly affected my career. I can't speak towards schizophrenia specifically, but you work through mental health like any other obstacle: if it turns out to be an impassable mountain, then go around it. This is what I hear in GGP's message, and it strongly resonates with my own experience.
      - nonbirithm 6y ago
        One problem is some mental illnesses, like schizophrenia, can cause the victim to believe they are not ill under any circumstance, and because of that they will refuse treatment. What can be done to work around self-deception?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - boomboomsubban 6y ago
        First, GGP? Can you imagine your situation being a little worse, so that no matter how hard you tried you couldn't find a path around it? Some people will end up in untenable situations, if you want a clearcut example consider a coma patient.
        smallnamespace 6y ago
        Great-grand-parent, to whom you were responding. A couple of thoughts: of course some people will be in a hole so deep they cannot dig themselves out. But I suspect that is rarer than you expect (look at how we went from mental illness in general, to schizophrenia, now to coma patients). Unless you’re intimately familiar with someone’s situation, how can you judge? I’ve found it more helpful to focus on how one can succeed, whether for myself or loved ones.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- TheOperator 6y ago
  The first post was using an article about mental illness to brag about their rags to riches story incidentally implying that mental disorders were a result of not trying hard enough. This one is offering the much more woke opinion that life is like a patronizing disability porn hollywood movie that disordered people just can't change themselves alone. They need the help of the audience self-insert to unlock their special disabled potential.
- sershe 6y ago
  You and the original article seem to be making two arguments that sound good in isolation but are incompatible. You are saying that it's no good to advice people with severe mental health issues to do better if they are poor (fair), whereas the article says early poverty increases the chances of having these disorders (also fair). The causation in two arguments is reversed, however (poor -> mental disorder, mental disorder -> poor), and this is where the OP's argument fits, I think... you become more likely to develop mental disorders because of certain aspects of poverty (malnutrition? bad habits/lifestyle? etc.), however for someone who believes in personal responsibility, that may be to a significant degree because you "didn't do better".
mmmmmk 6y ago
Yeah, I hear and sympathize with you, but it's a bit of a truism and misses the point. If this was about lead poisoning, and not parental income, that leads to mental illness, wouldn't you want to fix the problem, rather than just say buck up?
ABCLAW 6y ago
>I don't understand why people think I'm against helping people. For the purpose of trying to fill in that knowledge gap, let me say that as someone that just casually browsed the comments, you originally came across as tone-deaf and disconnected from reality. After the comment attempting to dismiss mental disorders, you came across as actively malicious. If you're serious about just trying to help people, try harder than telling them to work harder on a forum almost exclusively populated with well-off professionals.
falcolas 6y ago
> I'm not trying to shame anyone. Yes, you are. “Most mental disorders are not that serious” is passive-aggressively stating that those suffering from something you consider to “not be serious” just aren’t working hard enough; that they’re lazy, not disabled. The truth is, you can work as hard as you want, but if you’re not lucky as well, that work won’t propel you forward. https://youtu.be/3LopI4YeC4I https://youtu.be/3LopI4YeC4I <- Veritasium on luck vs hard work

boomboomsubban 6y ago

>I'm simply saying, no matter your situation, do the best you can because that's what you have control over. Also, it's easier to change yourself, than to change the world Again, you're telling this to people with mental disorders like schizophrenia. They don't necessarily have control over their disorder, and are unable to change themselves alone. This is why it seems like you're shaming people. You both belittled their issues and are telling them to just get over them, like they haven't been trying all along.

smallnamespace 6y ago
> They don't necessarily have control over their disorder, and are unable to change themselves alone. As someone who has dealt with serious, chronic health issues for a decade, I truly hate this attitude. I don't necessarily have full control over my health issues, but I'll be damned if you tell me I am unable to take actions to change myself and my situation. Yes, I much prefer messages that emphasize my personal agency, which your well-intentioned message actively denies. This is a tight-rope to walk: sick people have limitations and one should acknowledge them, but repeatedly asserting their utter helplessness is also a form of shaming and encourages them to stop trying.
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  No one is encouraging sick people to stop trying. They're trying to explain to relatively healthy and privileged people that blaming sick people for trying and failing is extremely unlikely to help them.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  >As someone who has dealt with serious, chronic health issues for a decade, I truly hate this attitude Do your chronic health issues alter the way your mind operates? If you believe that some external agent is inserting thoughts into your mind, how do you take control of such a situation? That's an extreme example, but such issues are common with mental disorders. When your mind itself is ill, willpower alone doesn't necessarily cut it.
  - smallnamespace 6y ago
    My health issues came along with significant cognitive effects, ones that significantly affected my career. I can't speak towards schizophrenia specifically, but you work through mental health like any other obstacle: if it turns out to be an impassable mountain, then go around it. This is what I hear in GGP's message, and it strongly resonates with my own experience.
    - nonbirithm 6y ago
      One problem is some mental illnesses, like schizophrenia, can cause the victim to believe they are not ill under any circumstance, and because of that they will refuse treatment. What can be done to work around self-deception?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - boomboomsubban 6y ago
      First, GGP? Can you imagine your situation being a little worse, so that no matter how hard you tried you couldn't find a path around it? Some people will end up in untenable situations, if you want a clearcut example consider a coma patient.
      - smallnamespace 6y ago
        Great-grand-parent, to whom you were responding. A couple of thoughts: of course some people will be in a hole so deep they cannot dig themselves out. But I suspect that is rarer than you expect (look at how we went from mental illness in general, to schizophrenia, now to coma patients). Unless you’re intimately familiar with someone’s situation, how can you judge? I’ve found it more helpful to focus on how one can succeed, whether for myself or loved ones.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
TheOperator 6y ago
The first post was using an article about mental illness to brag about their rags to riches story incidentally implying that mental disorders were a result of not trying hard enough. This one is offering the much more woke opinion that life is like a patronizing disability porn hollywood movie that disordered people just can't change themselves alone. They need the help of the audience self-insert to unlock their special disabled potential.
sershe 6y ago
You and the original article seem to be making two arguments that sound good in isolation but are incompatible. You are saying that it's no good to advice people with severe mental health issues to do better if they are poor (fair), whereas the article says early poverty increases the chances of having these disorders (also fair). The causation in two arguments is reversed, however (poor -> mental disorder, mental disorder -> poor), and this is where the OP's argument fits, I think... you become more likely to develop mental disorders because of certain aspects of poverty (malnutrition? bad habits/lifestyle? etc.), however for someone who believes in personal responsibility, that may be to a significant degree because you "didn't do better".

mmmmmk 6y ago

Yeah, I hear and sympathize with you, but it's a bit of a truism and misses the point. If this was about lead poisoning, and not parental income, that leads to mental illness, wouldn't you want to fix the problem, rather than just say buck up?

ABCLAW 6y ago

>I don't understand why people think I'm against helping people. For the purpose of trying to fill in that knowledge gap, let me say that as someone that just casually browsed the comments, you originally came across as tone-deaf and disconnected from reality. After the comment attempting to dismiss mental disorders, you came across as actively malicious. If you're serious about just trying to help people, try harder than telling them to work harder on a forum almost exclusively populated with well-off professionals.

falcolas 6y ago

> I'm not trying to shame anyone. Yes, you are. “Most mental disorders are not that serious” is passive-aggressively stating that those suffering from something you consider to “not be serious” just aren’t working hard enough; that they’re lazy, not disabled. The truth is, you can work as hard as you want, but if you’re not lucky as well, that work won’t propel you forward. https://youtu.be/3LopI4YeC4I https://youtu.be/3LopI4YeC4I <- Veritasium on luck vs hard work