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I know people are going to talk about income inequality, but isn't this obvious? That it's better to be richer? You'll have more resources and advantages. A com

I know people are going to talk about income inequality, but isn't this obvious? That it's better to be richer? You'll have more resources and advantages. A common concept where I'm from is you work harder so you can give your child a better life. My parents immigrated to a country with basically nothing and barely spoke English. I can't imagine what their lives were like, how hard it must have been. I was raised below the poverty line and had free lunch well into high school. They always told me they did everything they did because they wanted me to have a better life. It worked. I am amazed at how far there were able to climb, and it gave me the confident to achieve so much more. My mom routinely calls me a dreamer because I wanted to make six figures. In her world, this is huge, she doesn't understand the world like I do. And, that's okay, she did the best she could, so I achieve so much more. And, hopefully, one day, my child can achieve things I can only dream of. Life is unfair. The way I see it is every one of us was dropped into a race that we didn't ask to be in. Some of us got dropped further along in the race, some of us got dropped further behind. Is it unfair? Fuck yea it is, but what are you going to do? Stay there and complain? Or are you gonna get busy running.

boomboomsubban 6y ago
Telling people with mental disorders to pick themselves up by the bootstraps because life is unfair is a bit ridiculous.
- davidn20 6y ago
  Let's define mental illness better. We don't lump all bumps, bruises, and broken bones into physical illness. Yea, it's out of touch to tell someone with broken legs to walk it off. But, if someone got the wind knock out of them. That's perfectly fine advice. In fact, I hope and believe the majority of mental illness cases are not serious. Like, most physical cases. It's just harder to see, so people have a harder time properly categorizing it. Which is damaging to a person psyche. If someone has a sprain ankle, but thinks they have cancer. Imagine the unnecessary trauma and hopelessness the person is experiencing.
  - wildrhythms 6y ago
    >In fact, I hope and believe the majority of mental illness cases are not serious. Who are you to decide the seriousness of a mental illness?
  - _Microft 6y ago
    The study talks about mental illnesses that require "secondary care", i.e. the general practitioner is out of options and needs to refer the patient to a specialist. So not just "bumps and bruises".
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    Roughly 25% of these disorders are "broadly defined schizophrenia." Should we change that diagnosis so we can blame those suffering for their own failures? Personally, I'd rather hope and strive to reduce the amount of people suffering from mental disorders rather then redefine them so they aren't "serious." Everyone should be entitled to the "resources and advantages" that prevent illness, not just the rich.
    - eplanit 6y ago
      So, hospital for bumps and bruises, because they're just as serious as broken bones?
      - boomboomsubban 6y ago
        No, provide all the children with the safety equipment that limits both bruises and broken bones rather than only give it to the wealthy children.
    - davidn20 6y ago
      I don't understand why people think I'm against helping people. I'm not. I'm not trying to shame anyone. I'm simply saying, no matter your situation, do the best you can because that's what you have control over. Also, it's easier to change yourself, than to change the world. I mean if you're fighting to change the world, more power to you. I hope you succeed and make the world a fairer place.
justatdotin 6y ago
so what are you going to do? Stay there and shame? Or are you gonna get busy helping?
- davidn20 6y ago
  I am trying to help, having the right mindset is critical.
  - wildrhythms 6y ago
    By your definition, your mindset is within the context of a "race", but why does the race exist in the first place? Why are you participating in this race? Does the race need to exist at all? I would argue that an ideal society would abolish the so-called 'race', and directly meet the needs of every individual.
    - eplanit 6y ago
      I don't want life to be nursery school throughout adulthood.
juancn 6y ago
There's also the causality direction in question. Are they parents richer in part because they are less likely to have psychological disorders? Hence the offspring is also more likely to have fewer psychological disorders? In that scenario money is a correlated variable, and the root cause is somewhere else.
- beauzo 6y ago
  They adjusted “for the potential confounding effects of parental history of mental disorders...”
  - VLM 6y ago
    To quote: "Adjustment for parental mental illness also likely represented an under-adjustment as most parental psychiatric disorders that were treated in outpatient clinics (without inpatient admission) were not recorded, and all of those that were treated in primary care (without inpatient or outpatient treatment) were unregistered. Furthermore, although register-based mental disorder diagnoses have been shown to have good validity [33, 34], not all mental disorders have been validated." So if they exclude parental outpatient treated disorders, and exclude parental primary care treated disorders, all that seems to be left over is the rounding errors of self diagnosis and stays in mental hospitals, which would seem to be a huge issue for the conclusion. The conclusion section doesn't seem to relate to the results section and discussion section, so that's weird.
    - beauzo 6y ago
      I agree. I would expect genetics to be a fairly significant confounding variable.
DanBC 6y ago
> Or are you gonna get busy running. Can you describe what this means in the context of someone who has schizophrenia?
- davidn20 6y ago
  Sure, I feel like this is an authentic question and since people are misunderstanding me. I'll answer this, but then I'll leave this thread. I can't speak from the context of someone who has schizophrenia because as far as I know I don't have it. So I'll speak more generally. "Get busy running" is a mindset. It was a reference to "Get busy living" from Shawshank Redemption (Great movie). I don't know your situation, or how horrible it is to live with schizophrenia. I just hope there are still things you can control in your life. No matter how small or minuscules they seem, focus on that. Focus on the things you can do better. There is nothing wrong with wanting help or helping other people. However, from the perspective of an individual(who is suffering/disadvantaged) it's a safer bet to focus on things you can control. So, yes, I am putting the ownership of your life, in your own hands. Isn't that empowering? I find it is. Also, it doesn't have to be alone. Maybe, the way to help yourself is you find people that can help you. Allowing people to help and accepting help is big. No one asked for life. You're just given it. All the beauty and suffering. I said a race, but there is no finish line. You try or you don't. To everyone who is trying to make the world a better place. Thank you. I support you. I want the same thing. I'm trying to help in my own way. You might not agree, but that's okay. lol I hate how philosophical and cheesy I sound, but that's what I feel.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    Would you say the same to people with late stage cancer?
    - davidn20 6y ago
      More or less. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji5_MqicxSo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji5_MqicxSo
soared 6y ago
Ah the age old, “I was successful despite setbacks, so literally everyone is capable of the same, just work harder like I did”. I grew up in a very wealthy town and many of my friends shared this opinion - until they volunteered or worked with actually disadvantaged kids. Young Jimmy can’t pull himself up by his bootstraps when dad is in jail and mom works 12 hour shifts at McDonald’s. School feeds him breakfast and lunch. “Just work a little harder young jimmy, you can be successful despite not eating enough and having little parental guidance for the first 15 years of your life!” I did it just fine! You see it as a race because you won. Many people are just trying to stay alive, they can’t even conceptualize competing.
- mlboss 6y ago
  I think that’s what the top comment is saying. Every one starts the race with different set of disadvantages. In the end its up to you what are you going do about it. Also OP never says that he won the race. He is hoping his children will do better than him. I don’t think anybody ever “wins”. You only trade something for something else.
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    So we just give up on the concept of equal opportunity since everyone starts out differently?
  - soared 6y ago
    > In the end its up to you what are you going do about it. This is the ideology I was arguing against since it comes purely from a view of someone successful. It assumes everyone is equally capable of “doing something”. But if you struggle to find your next meal, you can’t do anything besides.. Try to find food. There is no “doing something about it” because you are so disadvantaged that regardless of your action it’s impossible to escape. In some cases you didn’t eat enough as a child and your brain is literally incapable of escaping. And you’ve never seen someone escape, so it’s not a known possibility. From my perspective op won the race because he/she makes 100k so objectively isn’t poor and doesn’t have comparable hurdles.
- 6y ago
nend 6y ago
This is classic survival bias. You worked hard and succeeded, congrats. People work hard and don't succeed all the time. Their children don't deserve mental illness because of it.
- serf 6y ago
  >Their children don't deserve mental illness because of it. an outcome doesn't have to be deserved in order to be obvious. They don't deserve it, of course, but it's obvious that someone with less resources available to them will have worse health. They will have to work more hours to meet their basic needs, and the money left over will be used at places available to them -- far from the best the world has to offer. It's not something anyone deserves, it's a consequence of limited care being prioritized by economy. It's a damn shame, but that's pretty largely applicable to all facets of living life. Higher quality lifestyle/housing/food/travel, less work hours, less stress, better medical care and opportunities to seek care leads to better health versus someone with none of those advantages. It's a well known phenomena across the health spectrum, and it's nice that it was quantified and linked in yet another way as it was in the article.
  - nend 6y ago
    Agreed, I wasn't criticizing the study. I was criticizing OPs argument that people should simply "get busy running." Blaming individuals for a lack of success when the deck is stacked against them is likely to lead to more mental health issues, not more success.
  - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
    "A consequence of limited care being prioritized by economy" is exactly the problem. And it is not a fact of life. It can be changed. Ultimately this is a moral problem. You either care or you don't. If you don't - well, fine. But don't complain when your family is being bankrupted and/or made homeless when you in turn receive "limited care being prioritized by the economy."
alanfranz 6y ago
> I know people are going to talk about income inequality, but isn't this obvious? That it's better to be richer? What is not obvious is that being poor in your childhood will, specifically, increase your risk of mental disorders. I would probably expect a poor kid to get less access to qualified education and, ultimately, be poorer for the rest of their life with respect to their richer peers. But not to experience mental disorders.
II2II 6y ago
> Is it unfair? Fuck yea it is, but what are you going to do? Stay there and complain? Or are you gonna get busy running. Keep in mind this study was talking about mental disorders. Many of those mental disorders will interfere will inhibit a person's ability to "get busy running." It is also worth considering that this paper is not about a race with a meaningful measure of success, regardless of how you define success. There are measured outcomes, whether a person ends up with a mental disorder or not, based upon preconditions. It is not even clear whether training more and running faster will even help a person reach the finish line (which is presumably good mental health throughout life).
TheOperator 6y ago
>I know people are going to talk about income inequality, but isn't this obvious? No it was not because one can name disorders like autism spectrum disorder where diagnosis is more likely with high socioeconomic status. In general this conclusion isn't that obvious because one would think a richer child would have more access to the medical resources to get diagnosed.
nouveaux 6y ago
Your parents worked hard and what they did was amazing. With that said, getting free lunch at school gave you the help you needed. Plenty of research shows that free lunch at school makes a huge difference in a child's development and academic achievement. This article is showing what other children needs. We should help them just like we helped you.
foogazi 6y ago
> I was raised below the poverty line and had free lunch well into high school. The irony here is that they couldn’t even feed you and you say: > It worked.

boomboomsubban 6y ago

Telling people with mental disorders to pick themselves up by the bootstraps because life is unfair is a bit ridiculous.

davidn20 6y ago
Let's define mental illness better. We don't lump all bumps, bruises, and broken bones into physical illness. Yea, it's out of touch to tell someone with broken legs to walk it off. But, if someone got the wind knock out of them. That's perfectly fine advice. In fact, I hope and believe the majority of mental illness cases are not serious. Like, most physical cases. It's just harder to see, so people have a harder time properly categorizing it. Which is damaging to a person psyche. If someone has a sprain ankle, but thinks they have cancer. Imagine the unnecessary trauma and hopelessness the person is experiencing.
- wildrhythms 6y ago
  >In fact, I hope and believe the majority of mental illness cases are not serious. Who are you to decide the seriousness of a mental illness?
- _Microft 6y ago
  The study talks about mental illnesses that require "secondary care", i.e. the general practitioner is out of options and needs to refer the patient to a specialist. So not just "bumps and bruises".
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  Roughly 25% of these disorders are "broadly defined schizophrenia." Should we change that diagnosis so we can blame those suffering for their own failures? Personally, I'd rather hope and strive to reduce the amount of people suffering from mental disorders rather then redefine them so they aren't "serious." Everyone should be entitled to the "resources and advantages" that prevent illness, not just the rich.
  - eplanit 6y ago
    So, hospital for bumps and bruises, because they're just as serious as broken bones?
    - boomboomsubban 6y ago
      No, provide all the children with the safety equipment that limits both bruises and broken bones rather than only give it to the wealthy children.
  - davidn20 6y ago
    I don't understand why people think I'm against helping people. I'm not. I'm not trying to shame anyone. I'm simply saying, no matter your situation, do the best you can because that's what you have control over. Also, it's easier to change yourself, than to change the world. I mean if you're fighting to change the world, more power to you. I hope you succeed and make the world a fairer place.

justatdotin 6y ago

so what are you going to do? Stay there and shame? Or are you gonna get busy helping?

davidn20 6y ago
I am trying to help, having the right mindset is critical.
- wildrhythms 6y ago
  By your definition, your mindset is within the context of a "race", but why does the race exist in the first place? Why are you participating in this race? Does the race need to exist at all? I would argue that an ideal society would abolish the so-called 'race', and directly meet the needs of every individual.
  - eplanit 6y ago
    I don't want life to be nursery school throughout adulthood.

juancn 6y ago

There's also the causality direction in question. Are they parents richer in part because they are less likely to have psychological disorders? Hence the offspring is also more likely to have fewer psychological disorders? In that scenario money is a correlated variable, and the root cause is somewhere else.

beauzo 6y ago
They adjusted “for the potential confounding effects of parental history of mental disorders...”
- VLM 6y ago
  To quote: "Adjustment for parental mental illness also likely represented an under-adjustment as most parental psychiatric disorders that were treated in outpatient clinics (without inpatient admission) were not recorded, and all of those that were treated in primary care (without inpatient or outpatient treatment) were unregistered. Furthermore, although register-based mental disorder diagnoses have been shown to have good validity [33, 34], not all mental disorders have been validated." So if they exclude parental outpatient treated disorders, and exclude parental primary care treated disorders, all that seems to be left over is the rounding errors of self diagnosis and stays in mental hospitals, which would seem to be a huge issue for the conclusion. The conclusion section doesn't seem to relate to the results section and discussion section, so that's weird.
  - beauzo 6y ago
    I agree. I would expect genetics to be a fairly significant confounding variable.

DanBC 6y ago

> Or are you gonna get busy running. Can you describe what this means in the context of someone who has schizophrenia?

davidn20 6y ago
Sure, I feel like this is an authentic question and since people are misunderstanding me. I'll answer this, but then I'll leave this thread. I can't speak from the context of someone who has schizophrenia because as far as I know I don't have it. So I'll speak more generally. "Get busy running" is a mindset. It was a reference to "Get busy living" from Shawshank Redemption (Great movie). I don't know your situation, or how horrible it is to live with schizophrenia. I just hope there are still things you can control in your life. No matter how small or minuscules they seem, focus on that. Focus on the things you can do better. There is nothing wrong with wanting help or helping other people. However, from the perspective of an individual(who is suffering/disadvantaged) it's a safer bet to focus on things you can control. So, yes, I am putting the ownership of your life, in your own hands. Isn't that empowering? I find it is. Also, it doesn't have to be alone. Maybe, the way to help yourself is you find people that can help you. Allowing people to help and accepting help is big. No one asked for life. You're just given it. All the beauty and suffering. I said a race, but there is no finish line. You try or you don't. To everyone who is trying to make the world a better place. Thank you. I support you. I want the same thing. I'm trying to help in my own way. You might not agree, but that's okay. lol I hate how philosophical and cheesy I sound, but that's what I feel.
- DanBC 6y ago
  Would you say the same to people with late stage cancer?
  - davidn20 6y ago
    More or less. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji5_MqicxSo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji5_MqicxSo

soared 6y ago

Ah the age old, “I was successful despite setbacks, so literally everyone is capable of the same, just work harder like I did”. I grew up in a very wealthy town and many of my friends shared this opinion - until they volunteered or worked with actually disadvantaged kids. Young Jimmy can’t pull himself up by his bootstraps when dad is in jail and mom works 12 hour shifts at McDonald’s. School feeds him breakfast and lunch. “Just work a little harder young jimmy, you can be successful despite not eating enough and having little parental guidance for the first 15 years of your life!” I did it just fine! You see it as a race because you won. Many people are just trying to stay alive, they can’t even conceptualize competing.

mlboss 6y ago
I think that’s what the top comment is saying. Every one starts the race with different set of disadvantages. In the end its up to you what are you going do about it. Also OP never says that he won the race. He is hoping his children will do better than him. I don’t think anybody ever “wins”. You only trade something for something else.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  So we just give up on the concept of equal opportunity since everyone starts out differently?
- soared 6y ago
  > In the end its up to you what are you going do about it. This is the ideology I was arguing against since it comes purely from a view of someone successful. It assumes everyone is equally capable of “doing something”. But if you struggle to find your next meal, you can’t do anything besides.. Try to find food. There is no “doing something about it” because you are so disadvantaged that regardless of your action it’s impossible to escape. In some cases you didn’t eat enough as a child and your brain is literally incapable of escaping. And you’ve never seen someone escape, so it’s not a known possibility. From my perspective op won the race because he/she makes 100k so objectively isn’t poor and doesn’t have comparable hurdles.
6y ago

nend 6y ago

This is classic survival bias. You worked hard and succeeded, congrats. People work hard and don't succeed all the time. Their children don't deserve mental illness because of it.

serf 6y ago
>Their children don't deserve mental illness because of it. an outcome doesn't have to be deserved in order to be obvious. They don't deserve it, of course, but it's obvious that someone with less resources available to them will have worse health. They will have to work more hours to meet their basic needs, and the money left over will be used at places available to them -- far from the best the world has to offer. It's not something anyone deserves, it's a consequence of limited care being prioritized by economy. It's a damn shame, but that's pretty largely applicable to all facets of living life. Higher quality lifestyle/housing/food/travel, less work hours, less stress, better medical care and opportunities to seek care leads to better health versus someone with none of those advantages. It's a well known phenomena across the health spectrum, and it's nice that it was quantified and linked in yet another way as it was in the article.
- nend 6y ago
  Agreed, I wasn't criticizing the study. I was criticizing OPs argument that people should simply "get busy running." Blaming individuals for a lack of success when the deck is stacked against them is likely to lead to more mental health issues, not more success.
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  "A consequence of limited care being prioritized by economy" is exactly the problem. And it is not a fact of life. It can be changed. Ultimately this is a moral problem. You either care or you don't. If you don't - well, fine. But don't complain when your family is being bankrupted and/or made homeless when you in turn receive "limited care being prioritized by the economy."

alanfranz 6y ago

> I know people are going to talk about income inequality, but isn't this obvious? That it's better to be richer? What is not obvious is that being poor in your childhood will, specifically, increase your risk of mental disorders. I would probably expect a poor kid to get less access to qualified education and, ultimately, be poorer for the rest of their life with respect to their richer peers. But not to experience mental disorders.

II2II 6y ago

> Is it unfair? Fuck yea it is, but what are you going to do? Stay there and complain? Or are you gonna get busy running. Keep in mind this study was talking about mental disorders. Many of those mental disorders will interfere will inhibit a person's ability to "get busy running." It is also worth considering that this paper is not about a race with a meaningful measure of success, regardless of how you define success. There are measured outcomes, whether a person ends up with a mental disorder or not, based upon preconditions. It is not even clear whether training more and running faster will even help a person reach the finish line (which is presumably good mental health throughout life).

TheOperator 6y ago

>I know people are going to talk about income inequality, but isn't this obvious? No it was not because one can name disorders like autism spectrum disorder where diagnosis is more likely with high socioeconomic status. In general this conclusion isn't that obvious because one would think a richer child would have more access to the medical resources to get diagnosed.

nouveaux 6y ago

Your parents worked hard and what they did was amazing. With that said, getting free lunch at school gave you the help you needed. Plenty of research shows that free lunch at school makes a huge difference in a child's development and academic achievement. This article is showing what other children needs. We should help them just like we helped you.

foogazi 6y ago

> I was raised below the poverty line and had free lunch well into high school. The irony here is that they couldn’t even feed you and you say: > It worked.