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I'd like to think that after the nth discussion of this topic we could all generally agree: - Some people prefer working in an office environment. There are va

I'd like to think that after the nth discussion of this topic we could all generally agree: - Some people prefer working in an office environment. There are valid reasons for this, and it's totally fine. - Other people prefer working at home, and this is also completely fine and understandable. - People other than yourself who experience challenges with either one of these arrangements are not idiots and the things they talk about are genuine issues that they experience, which are unlikely to be effectively solved by suggestions like "you are doing it wrong" or "get a new job". - Not everybody out there is in the same situation as you with regards to living arrangements, family commitments and so on. Solutions that seem obvious and easy to you are unattainable for others. My hope at least is that the experiences we've all had over the past year will help to make work more flexible and inclusive, so that we can take all of the above into account. In particular, is seems inevitable that companies should stop adopting an inflexible "no remote work" policy and instead make it easier for people to work from anywhere. I'd love to see some new and creative approaches – like companies using their newfound remote-friendliness to make it feasible to spin up small branch offices in co-working spaces, so that workers' commutes can be reduced but they still get an office environment if it's helpful for them.

ricardo81 6y ago
I agree with the sentiment of your creative approach. I think a good middle ground is having offices in neighbourhoods, within walking/cycling distance where people from different companies come to work. They get the benefit of social interaction, "getting out of the house", and avoid a car journey. Living in the UK, I think that would also help restore the feeling of community, as a gathering point for people within a local area. Personally I prefer working from home and have done so for 20 years, almost all my working life- but I understand why people have reasons for preferring an alternative.
- shaoonb 6y ago
  I personally feel that part of the benefit of the office is sometimes being able to unite against the common enemy that is your employer.
- fennecfoxen 6y ago
  Offices are in office districts in places like London for a reason: many people will join the job not living near the office, those people will be all over town, and of course the housing prices nearby might not be to their liking (or the neighborhood amenities, for that matter). An office district allows people to get to the office expediently from homes all over town, or even in the next town over, because all the trains and buses are routes to take people there. (Other cities in the UK may vary, but how many of them are tech hubs?)
  - LockAndLol 6y ago
    Expedient really is relative. Some people go from 1.5h of commute to 30 and are happy, others go from 30 to 1h. I have friends in London with commutes across the spectrum. It's easier to switch your job than find a suitable apartment with an "expedient" commute.
  - Jaruzel 6y ago
    > An office district allows people to get to the office expediently from homes all over town You've clearly not commuted in and out of London at rush-hour/peak-time then. I REALLY don't miss that. Most days an advertised 30 minute train journey would take 50 minutes and unless you got on the train at it's starting point, that's 50 minutes of standing with your face in someones armpit.
    - fennecfoxen 6y ago
      > You've clearly not commuted in and out of London at rush-hour/peak-time then. Not only have I done that, I've put up with the Southern strikes. Still far better to go into the center of town than to go to some random spot on a different edge of town.
      - ricardo81 6y ago
        Not sure if you misunderstood my point as I meant people would work from their own neighbourhood, not specific ones for specific companies.
graderjs 6y ago
I think office work should be an option companies provide, and it should be like an AirOffice, floating, in co-working or "business center" office space, or even ad-hoc such as at such and such a cool, wifi, remote work friendly cafe. I think this is the future of work and that's how I want to run my company when it employs people. I had this idea since around 2010/2011. I know this won't work for everything. Factories obviously need to be staffed (so far). But for 'knowledge work' we should be able to work anywhere, including, if the need arises, to rent private digs and all get together in person.
- ck425 6y ago
  Would that be similar to WeWork? I'd want to be in an office with my actual colleagues rather than remote working from a co-working space.
  - graderjs 6y ago
    I don't know about them, but if you worked for me and the team you were on agreed, we'd rent you a dedicated office. At the same time, if team wanted to go full remote, or cowork we'd support that. Sort of like how Apple used to take over buildings for a project. Another idea i had about this was we could also consider RE investment. If we had the cash and the investment made sense, we'd actually buy the floor or whatever, and once our project no longer needed it, we'd rent. I like the idea that overtime the business converts some of its cash into RE, that can act as a buffer for the rest of our income.
gamesbrainiac 6y ago
I very much agree. If you like working in the office, then work in the office, and if you prefer working at home, then work at home. We need to be inclusive of people, and let them work the way _they_ best feel productive. It is unfortunate that people think that it has to be either one or the other.
- ck425 6y ago
  I think part of the issue, atleast within companies, it does need to be either or. An empty office often isn't any better than WFH for many folk. So if in your company you're in the minority then you might need to get a new job. There's also the effect of the industry. While flexible working is great (I could already role out of bed and decide to WFH whenever before covid) there's a chance companies might cut back on offices or force bullshit like hot desking. In the long run I think this'll turn out for the best and the OP is right to be optimistic. But in the short run there may be a lot of turmoil.
  - gamesbrainiac 6y ago
    > An empty office often isn't any better than WFH for many folk. That is really their problem. You can't force people to come to the office because you want it "hustling and bustling".
    - ck425 6y ago
      We can debate separately if companies should force people back to office. But in this case it is an either or. If the advantage of the office comes from being around your team and colleagues then it very much is an either or between home working or everyone being in the office.
      - ghaff 6y ago
        It's not wholly binary--maybe 2 scheduled days a week will work for both many of the people who would just as soon mostly work from home and those who want to be in an office with their team. But, in general, yes. A "you can come into an office if you want" policy is probably not going to be very satisfactory for someone who wants a co-located team and much of their team chooses not to come in most days or even live in the same area. As I've said before, as this shakes out over the next year or two, I suspect a fair number of people who can do so will end up choosing jobs based on remote policies and how companies operate in practice.
toyg 6y ago
> inevitable that companies should stop adopting an inflexible "no remote work" policy That's an optimistic take. I can totally see this or that manager having a horrible time at home, and as soon as he's back to the office, instituting a "next time we'll rather die here" policy where they stock up on masks and canned food and build a bunker-like environment that he'll never have to leave again. In the end, execs already worked from wherever they liked. They set up certain policies because they thought they were more productive for the hoi polloi. I don't think the pandemic changed much in that regard, sadly.
AreYouElite 6y ago
I'd like to propose a fork of society, for people like me, who like to work from home or remote.
ukyrgf 6y ago
Yeah I think there is a pretty huge gap between most people's office/home differences, and what the OP misses: > I miss occasional after-work drinks at the sky bar with the $18 well drinks that we always convinced management to pay for. It just took me a dozen emails, 6 phone calls, and 2 tedious in face conversations to get accounting to buy me a single AAAA battery - not AA, not AAA, but AAAA, yes I'm sure, AAAA, yes I only need one. So yeah I don't miss my office.
- ghaff 6y ago
  So. I have to ask, why? A pair seems to be $6 on Amazon. Why wouldn't one simply order it and expense it? And even if expensing weren't possible for some reason, was it really worth your time?
  - ukyrgf 6y ago
    Of course, but at a certain point you think "how many more times can I possibly have to re-confirm this?" and you just let it run its course. To top it off, they bought 2 2-packs. The last battery lasted me 4 years so I guess they're invested until 2036.
disown 6y ago
> I'd like to think that after the nth discussion of this topic we could all generally agree: It's either this or the neverending "How do I become more creative", "How do I become more productive", "Tricks to stop using your smartphone", etc...

ricardo81 6y ago

I agree with the sentiment of your creative approach. I think a good middle ground is having offices in neighbourhoods, within walking/cycling distance where people from different companies come to work. They get the benefit of social interaction, "getting out of the house", and avoid a car journey. Living in the UK, I think that would also help restore the feeling of community, as a gathering point for people within a local area. Personally I prefer working from home and have done so for 20 years, almost all my working life- but I understand why people have reasons for preferring an alternative.

shaoonb 6y ago
I personally feel that part of the benefit of the office is sometimes being able to unite against the common enemy that is your employer.
fennecfoxen 6y ago
Offices are in office districts in places like London for a reason: many people will join the job not living near the office, those people will be all over town, and of course the housing prices nearby might not be to their liking (or the neighborhood amenities, for that matter). An office district allows people to get to the office expediently from homes all over town, or even in the next town over, because all the trains and buses are routes to take people there. (Other cities in the UK may vary, but how many of them are tech hubs?)
- LockAndLol 6y ago
  Expedient really is relative. Some people go from 1.5h of commute to 30 and are happy, others go from 30 to 1h. I have friends in London with commutes across the spectrum. It's easier to switch your job than find a suitable apartment with an "expedient" commute.
- Jaruzel 6y ago
  > An office district allows people to get to the office expediently from homes all over town You've clearly not commuted in and out of London at rush-hour/peak-time then. I REALLY don't miss that. Most days an advertised 30 minute train journey would take 50 minutes and unless you got on the train at it's starting point, that's 50 minutes of standing with your face in someones armpit.
  - fennecfoxen 6y ago
    > You've clearly not commuted in and out of London at rush-hour/peak-time then. Not only have I done that, I've put up with the Southern strikes. Still far better to go into the center of town than to go to some random spot on a different edge of town.
    - ricardo81 6y ago
      Not sure if you misunderstood my point as I meant people would work from their own neighbourhood, not specific ones for specific companies.

graderjs 6y ago

I think office work should be an option companies provide, and it should be like an AirOffice, floating, in co-working or "business center" office space, or even ad-hoc such as at such and such a cool, wifi, remote work friendly cafe. I think this is the future of work and that's how I want to run my company when it employs people. I had this idea since around 2010/2011. I know this won't work for everything. Factories obviously need to be staffed (so far). But for 'knowledge work' we should be able to work anywhere, including, if the need arises, to rent private digs and all get together in person.

ck425 6y ago
Would that be similar to WeWork? I'd want to be in an office with my actual colleagues rather than remote working from a co-working space.
- graderjs 6y ago
  I don't know about them, but if you worked for me and the team you were on agreed, we'd rent you a dedicated office. At the same time, if team wanted to go full remote, or cowork we'd support that. Sort of like how Apple used to take over buildings for a project. Another idea i had about this was we could also consider RE investment. If we had the cash and the investment made sense, we'd actually buy the floor or whatever, and once our project no longer needed it, we'd rent. I like the idea that overtime the business converts some of its cash into RE, that can act as a buffer for the rest of our income.

gamesbrainiac 6y ago

I very much agree. If you like working in the office, then work in the office, and if you prefer working at home, then work at home. We need to be inclusive of people, and let them work the way _they_ best feel productive. It is unfortunate that people think that it has to be either one or the other.

ck425 6y ago
I think part of the issue, atleast within companies, it does need to be either or. An empty office often isn't any better than WFH for many folk. So if in your company you're in the minority then you might need to get a new job. There's also the effect of the industry. While flexible working is great (I could already role out of bed and decide to WFH whenever before covid) there's a chance companies might cut back on offices or force bullshit like hot desking. In the long run I think this'll turn out for the best and the OP is right to be optimistic. But in the short run there may be a lot of turmoil.
- gamesbrainiac 6y ago
  > An empty office often isn't any better than WFH for many folk. That is really their problem. You can't force people to come to the office because you want it "hustling and bustling".
  - ck425 6y ago
    We can debate separately if companies should force people back to office. But in this case it is an either or. If the advantage of the office comes from being around your team and colleagues then it very much is an either or between home working or everyone being in the office.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      It's not wholly binary--maybe 2 scheduled days a week will work for both many of the people who would just as soon mostly work from home and those who want to be in an office with their team. But, in general, yes. A "you can come into an office if you want" policy is probably not going to be very satisfactory for someone who wants a co-located team and much of their team chooses not to come in most days or even live in the same area. As I've said before, as this shakes out over the next year or two, I suspect a fair number of people who can do so will end up choosing jobs based on remote policies and how companies operate in practice.

toyg 6y ago

> inevitable that companies should stop adopting an inflexible "no remote work" policy That's an optimistic take. I can totally see this or that manager having a horrible time at home, and as soon as he's back to the office, instituting a "next time we'll rather die here" policy where they stock up on masks and canned food and build a bunker-like environment that he'll never have to leave again. In the end, execs already worked from wherever they liked. They set up certain policies because they thought they were more productive for the hoi polloi. I don't think the pandemic changed much in that regard, sadly.

AreYouElite 6y ago

I'd like to propose a fork of society, for people like me, who like to work from home or remote.

ukyrgf 6y ago

Yeah I think there is a pretty huge gap between most people's office/home differences, and what the OP misses: > I miss occasional after-work drinks at the sky bar with the $18 well drinks that we always convinced management to pay for. It just took me a dozen emails, 6 phone calls, and 2 tedious in face conversations to get accounting to buy me a single AAAA battery - not AA, not AAA, but AAAA, yes I'm sure, AAAA, yes I only need one. So yeah I don't miss my office.

ghaff 6y ago
So. I have to ask, why? A pair seems to be $6 on Amazon. Why wouldn't one simply order it and expense it? And even if expensing weren't possible for some reason, was it really worth your time?
- ukyrgf 6y ago
  Of course, but at a certain point you think "how many more times can I possibly have to re-confirm this?" and you just let it run its course. To top it off, they bought 2 2-packs. The last battery lasted me 4 years so I guess they're invested until 2036.

disown 6y ago

> I'd like to think that after the nth discussion of this topic we could all generally agree: It's either this or the neverending "How do I become more creative", "How do I become more productive", "Tricks to stop using your smartphone", etc...