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I recommend learning more about the bitcoin payments space before trying to criticise it. A bitcoin transaction does not cost $10 (https://mempool.space/graphs

by nmlnn 6y ago

I recommend learning more about the bitcoin payments space before trying to criticise it. A bitcoin transaction does not cost $10 (https://mempool.space/graphs#1w https://mempool.space/graphs#1w). If you are going to add in your (completely made up?) estimate of mining costs to a bitcoin transaction you would need to include the costs of the entire fiat payments and settlement infrastructure to the costs of credit card transactions. From gold mined and stored by central banks all the way through to the energy used by the back offices of commercial banks all over the world.

arcticbull 6y ago
> A bitcoin transaction does not cost $10 (https://mempool.space/graphs#1w https://mempool.space/graphs#1w). At the time I posted this, the average fee was hovering between $8 and $14 per transaction, and so I picked a fairly generous, low average. > If you are going to add in your (completely made up?) estimate of mining costs to a bitcoin transaction... It's not made up, it's available for you to review and criticize here [1], with all the linked studies available to you. I specifically did not include the 700 kWh at a global average $0.14/kWh ($98) so as to avoid inviting this criticism. > ...you would need to include the costs of the entire fiat payments and settlement infrastructure to the costs of credit card transactions. From gold mined and stored by central banks all the way through to the energy used by the back offices of commercial banks all over the world. Without going through the process of estimating what it is, I can tell you what it isn't -- even close to the same order of magnitude as BTC. I know that because if I scaled up linearly the energy consumption and e-waste generation of BTC vs. just Visa it would require several times more energy than the entire world generates today, and would generate more e-waste than the entire world generates today. It's wasteful, and it's shameful for people to defend it like this. Its energy usage is not comparable, at all, no matter what externalities you tried to bundle in. Now there might be a case to be made that the energy usage is worth it, but deflecting the energy usage criticism with hand-waving about including the calories exerted by gold miners swinging pick-axes under the earth is at best disingenuous. [1] https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

by nmlnn 6y ago

arcticbull 6y ago

> A bitcoin transaction does not cost $10 (https://mempool.space/graphs#1w https://mempool.space/graphs#1w). At the time I posted this, the average fee was hovering between $8 and $14 per transaction, and so I picked a fairly generous, low average. > If you are going to add in your (completely made up?) estimate of mining costs to a bitcoin transaction... It's not made up, it's available for you to review and criticize here [1], with all the linked studies available to you. I specifically did not include the 700 kWh at a global average $0.14/kWh ($98) so as to avoid inviting this criticism. > ...you would need to include the costs of the entire fiat payments and settlement infrastructure to the costs of credit card transactions. From gold mined and stored by central banks all the way through to the energy used by the back offices of commercial banks all over the world. Without going through the process of estimating what it is, I can tell you what it isn't -- even close to the same order of magnitude as BTC. I know that because if I scaled up linearly the energy consumption and e-waste generation of BTC vs. just Visa it would require several times more energy than the entire world generates today, and would generate more e-waste than the entire world generates today. It's wasteful, and it's shameful for people to defend it like this. Its energy usage is not comparable, at all, no matter what externalities you tried to bundle in. Now there might be a case to be made that the energy usage is worth it, but deflecting the energy usage criticism with hand-waving about including the calories exerted by gold miners swinging pick-axes under the earth is at best disingenuous. [1] https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption