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We feel the damage caused by the lies around the Iraq war and their alleged weapons of mass destruction until today. The Bush/Blair administration pushed for wa

We feel the damage caused by the lies around the Iraq war and their alleged weapons of mass destruction until today. The Bush/Blair administration pushed for war and claimed to the whole world that they have proof of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, requiring immediate intervention. But this proved to be a lie. [1] We follow(ed) populists who used the facts that our leaders lied to us and that we did not believe them anymore. We can't combat this pandemic or the climate catastrophe effectively because opportunists sow distrust and they can because we distrust our leaders because they lied to us. The world would be a very different place today (a better one!), if our leaders didn't have lied to us. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/07/usa.iraq1 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/07/usa.iraq1

everdrive 6y ago
Well said. A total reversal can lead to new problems which are just as bad as the problems you're fleeing from.
dahfizz 6y ago
I'm not sure why you single out Bush as the point where people lost trust in the government. From as far back as the USS Maine, operation northwoods, and more recently the fast and furious scandal, or all the snowden leaks. The government has always lied and has never been worthy of trust, before during or after Bush.
- Guest42 6y ago
  The article is about 9/11 and the subsequent events.
mgamache 6y ago
Bush may have lied, but don't forget that Saddam Hussein used WMDs and wanted his neighbors to think he might have them to project regional power. So the lie was believable and not manufactured from whole cloth. Did they believe it? Some probably did, but other used it to forward a proactive foreign policy to remake the middle east. It's one area where conservatives underestimate the cost of change.
- jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
  Who we should have believed is the UN inspection team. That's literally their role in things. But they didn't support the narrative Bush/Blair wanted. I think you'll have a very hard time finding anyone besides the neocon camp that think 2003 somehow reshaped the middle east for the better.
  - mgamache 6y ago
    Saddam played games with the inspection teams (remember the 'presidential sites'). Did Blix get a comprehensive look and verify maybe, but that was after 10 years of obfuscation. Also, you know who thought he might have nerve gas? The Kurds. And I wasn't arguing the invasion was good or bad, I don't think we'll ever know. At least not for a few generations. https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4996218 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=499621...
    - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
      Saddam was in permanent time out. The US could have protected the Kurds as much as it liked simply by expanding the no fly zone into further restrictions. None of that necessitated deception to invasion to topple a country that won't recover for generations.
jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
So, the problem with this narrative is that I bet if you poll most of the people who are refusing to wear masks, etc, you'll find they still support the 2003 invasion with pride. This populist wave isn't some neutral thing where people suddenly lost faith in politicians due to Bush and Iraq. It's core is ultimately something much more ugly and malicious, and it's an arc that goes back decades at the least.
- me_me_me 6y ago
  Its something that has been carefully cultivated over decades. Its definitely not an opportunistic political power grab. The most ironic thing is that the very politicians that those people glorify are the people who will ultimately fuck them over the most. The rust belt was create via republican way of thinking. But facts =/= emotions not even close, so the status quo will remain.
  - ASalazarMX 6y ago
    Unfortunately feeling is much easier than thinking, and it's easier to elicit negative feelings than positive ones. Thus demagogues have an almost unavoidable path to success: scare people, promise to make them feel safer, watch them cling to you, repeat. As long as humans don't keep our instincts subordinated to reason, this will keep happening, it's in our nature.

everdrive 6y ago

Well said. A total reversal can lead to new problems which are just as bad as the problems you're fleeing from.

dahfizz 6y ago

I'm not sure why you single out Bush as the point where people lost trust in the government. From as far back as the USS Maine, operation northwoods, and more recently the fast and furious scandal, or all the snowden leaks. The government has always lied and has never been worthy of trust, before during or after Bush.

Guest42 6y ago
The article is about 9/11 and the subsequent events.

mgamache 6y ago

Bush may have lied, but don't forget that Saddam Hussein used WMDs and wanted his neighbors to think he might have them to project regional power. So the lie was believable and not manufactured from whole cloth. Did they believe it? Some probably did, but other used it to forward a proactive foreign policy to remake the middle east. It's one area where conservatives underestimate the cost of change.

jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
Who we should have believed is the UN inspection team. That's literally their role in things. But they didn't support the narrative Bush/Blair wanted. I think you'll have a very hard time finding anyone besides the neocon camp that think 2003 somehow reshaped the middle east for the better.
- mgamache 6y ago
  Saddam played games with the inspection teams (remember the 'presidential sites'). Did Blix get a comprehensive look and verify maybe, but that was after 10 years of obfuscation. Also, you know who thought he might have nerve gas? The Kurds. And I wasn't arguing the invasion was good or bad, I don't think we'll ever know. At least not for a few generations. https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4996218 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=499621...
  - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
    Saddam was in permanent time out. The US could have protected the Kurds as much as it liked simply by expanding the no fly zone into further restrictions. None of that necessitated deception to invasion to topple a country that won't recover for generations.

jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago

So, the problem with this narrative is that I bet if you poll most of the people who are refusing to wear masks, etc, you'll find they still support the 2003 invasion with pride. This populist wave isn't some neutral thing where people suddenly lost faith in politicians due to Bush and Iraq. It's core is ultimately something much more ugly and malicious, and it's an arc that goes back decades at the least.

me_me_me 6y ago
Its something that has been carefully cultivated over decades. Its definitely not an opportunistic political power grab. The most ironic thing is that the very politicians that those people glorify are the people who will ultimately fuck them over the most. The rust belt was create via republican way of thinking. But facts =/= emotions not even close, so the status quo will remain.
- ASalazarMX 6y ago
  Unfortunately feeling is much easier than thinking, and it's easier to elicit negative feelings than positive ones. Thus demagogues have an almost unavoidable path to success: scare people, promise to make them feel safer, watch them cling to you, repeat. As long as humans don't keep our instincts subordinated to reason, this will keep happening, it's in our nature.