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I guess I could say I'm "mask skeptical" even though I do wear one to conform to social pressure. I wish the conversation would move on from "do masks work?" t

by J-dawg 6y ago

I guess I could say I'm "mask skeptical" even though I do wear one to conform to social pressure. I wish the conversation would move on from "do masks work?" to "do they work well enough to be worth the cost?" Because I think the costs are being significantly underestimated. We are social creatures. All of the joy has been taken out of routine daily activities. Putting on a mask at the supermarket entrance as if you're about to enter some contaminated danger zone. Being unable to give a friendly smile to people as you pass them. I am 100% sure it's affecting my mental health, and I can't be the only one. In online discussion, these concerns get brushed aside as if they are the complaints of a spoiled child: "stop being a Karen and put a damn mask on..." I'm not some science denier. It seems logical that a barrier over the mouth and nose must limit how far droplets can travel. As I understand it, empirical evidence also supports this (when the mask is worn by an infected person). There may be some (weak) evidence that masks also protect a non-infected wearer, despite this study. But the size of the effect can't be that big. Here in the UK mask compliance is high, yet we're well into our second wave. So in the real world, masks can't be doing all that much. (Or, most of the infections are happening in mask-free places such as between family members in the home). So maybe I'm just another "Karen", but I want more evidence that I'm enduring the costs of mask-wearing for a good reason. In the meantime, I'll keep wearing my mask because it seems to keep everyone else happy, but I'm continually disappointed by the lack of nuanced discussion about this.

happytoexplain 6y ago
Ignoring the people who are obviously just complaining about masks for ideological/"Karen" reasons, I have to say I've been totally caught off guard during this pandemic by the existence of people like you (not in a critical way). I can relate to it feeling a little awkward at first wearing a mask in public in a culture that doesn't usually do that, but, despite being a social person and sympathizing with the social isolation pain of staying at home, the idea that "all of the joy has been taken out of routine daily activities" due to the masks for psycho-social reasons was outside my realm of imagination. I genuinely feel bad for people with that piece of personality.
- J-dawg 6y ago
  This might make you even more surprised about my existence, but I'm not entirely unsympathetic to the "ideological" types. Let me put it another way: why weren't you wearing a mask during flu season every year? Or, given that Covid will probably exist in some form for many years to come (even with a vaccine), when will you stop wearing one? Because you could make a case for mandatory mask wearing at all times, forever, using the same logic that's currently being employed: "it's only a minor inconvenience and if it saves even one life, it's worth it". Presumably you won't wear a mask forever: you'll make a personal decision, based on data or gut feeling, that the "effect size" of mask wearing is no longer worth the inconvenience. You were already making that calculation, implicitly, when you chose not to wear a mask during flu season last year. That calculation will be different for every individual. Which is why I don't think any of us is really in a position to judge another person when the parameters of the calculation are different for them. Ultimately, the differing parameters of that calculation are what we call "ideology". To return to my original point, it's also why we vitally need an open discussion on the "effect size" of wearing a mask. If it's large (I suspect it is not), then it gives more weight to the idea that all the Karens should just shut up and wear one. If it's small, there's a lot more room for personal choice.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    This isn't and can't be a completely individual decision, though, any more than driving on the left is. It has to be coordinated, formally or informally.
  - rntksi 6y ago
    As an aside, I don't understand this (living in Asian country). We've moved past that stage of thinking whether we should or not. If I feel like sneezing or have a fever some day, I'll have a mask on. It's customary here especially when riding public transport. That way I don't sneeze on others.
  - kaba0 6y ago
    Sorry, but this is a really self-centric view on the issue. It is absolutely not an individual choice, and it should not be. Also, it is a hyperbole to compare it to “if it saves even one live”, when in reality you have to wear a mask to decrease the R rate, so that the country’s hospitals doesn’t get absolutely flooded with people due to the exponential rate of the infection - making them unable to cure people even if they were to need treatment for other reasons then covid. So basically, in order to have working modern medicine, everyone has to wear masks..
hedgehog 6y ago
There's plenty of evidence mask campaigns slow transmission. It's not fun but I see it as a minuscule sacrifice for me to wear a mask to the grocery store if it saves even one person a trip to the hospital. The sad reality is the grocery store _is_ a contaminated danger zone, and will be until we get this thing under control. The sliver of good news is that lowering the growth rate just slightly from above 1.0 to below will cause the epidemic to shrink dramatically. It's not like we need to reduce transmission by 100%. Not that you asked for it but my advice to you is to find more sources of joy in your daily life that aren't so affected. If you're bored shoot me an e-mail, I have plenty of extra projects :)
- J-dawg 6y ago
  > There's plenty of evidence mask campaigns slow transmission By how much do they slow transmission? > It's not fun but I see it as a minuscule sacrifice for me to wear a mask to the grocery store if it saves even one person a trip to the hospital People go to hospital with flu every year. You or I might have unknowingly spread it around and caused someone to go to hospital before. Will you wear a mask every flu season, forever? It's worth it if it saves even one person a trip to the hospital, right?
  - me_me_me 6y ago
    I would have no problem with mask to be adopted as a thing that people do. Try changing this argument from 'wearing masks' to 'washing hands' or wearing seatbelt.
  - juusto 6y ago
    >Will you wear a mask every flu season, forever? It's worth it if it saves even one person a trip to the hospital, right? Would it be so bad to wear a mask when flu season is around? Plenty of folks do in Asian countries to no inconvenience to their daily lives. I do hope that going forward we will be more educated on the benefits of wearing a mask here in the west and we take the lesson to heart. I doubt it though.
  - hedgehog 6y ago
    Mask for crowded places and public transit to reduce flu? Sure. But that's not a remotely comparable situation for a few reasons: 1) seasonal flu has available vaccines, 2) seasonal flu kills orders of magnitude fewer people, 3) seasonal flu is much less contagious, 4) seasonal flu does not appear to have nearly the level of long-lasting incapacitation.
pjc50 6y ago
> most of the infections are happening in mask-free places such as between family members in the home Yes, and certain workplaces. But that's the distribution you'd expect if masks had a positive effect. (I would really like good league tables on where all the transmission is happening, including workplaces, schools, and universities, but that seems to be beyond the capacity of the UK state). The cost of not wearing masks is transmitting the disease, which, even if you and the person you transmit it to, do not experience symptoms, prolongs the pain. If we had 100% effective transmission prevention this would all be over by now. In some countries it is. The sooner people improve their anti-transmission behaviour the sooner they can stop doing it and we can all go back to the pub.
- MagnumOpus 6y ago
  > I would really like good league tables on where all the transmission is happening, including workplaces, schools, and universities, but that seems to be beyond the capacity of the UK state PHE has that league table, as widely reported in the press. E.g. https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-supermarkets-most-common-exposure-setting-for-catching-coronavirus-in-england-latest-data-shows-12136418 https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-supermarkets-most-common... Upshot: a huge amount of infections happen in schools where kids and teachers don't wear masks.

by J-dawg 6y ago

happytoexplain 6y ago

Ignoring the people who are obviously just complaining about masks for ideological/"Karen" reasons, I have to say I've been totally caught off guard during this pandemic by the existence of people like you (not in a critical way). I can relate to it feeling a little awkward at first wearing a mask in public in a culture that doesn't usually do that, but, despite being a social person and sympathizing with the social isolation pain of staying at home, the idea that "all of the joy has been taken out of routine daily activities" due to the masks for psycho-social reasons was outside my realm of imagination. I genuinely feel bad for people with that piece of personality.

J-dawg 6y ago
This might make you even more surprised about my existence, but I'm not entirely unsympathetic to the "ideological" types. Let me put it another way: why weren't you wearing a mask during flu season every year? Or, given that Covid will probably exist in some form for many years to come (even with a vaccine), when will you stop wearing one? Because you could make a case for mandatory mask wearing at all times, forever, using the same logic that's currently being employed: "it's only a minor inconvenience and if it saves even one life, it's worth it". Presumably you won't wear a mask forever: you'll make a personal decision, based on data or gut feeling, that the "effect size" of mask wearing is no longer worth the inconvenience. You were already making that calculation, implicitly, when you chose not to wear a mask during flu season last year. That calculation will be different for every individual. Which is why I don't think any of us is really in a position to judge another person when the parameters of the calculation are different for them. Ultimately, the differing parameters of that calculation are what we call "ideology". To return to my original point, it's also why we vitally need an open discussion on the "effect size" of wearing a mask. If it's large (I suspect it is not), then it gives more weight to the idea that all the Karens should just shut up and wear one. If it's small, there's a lot more room for personal choice.
- pjc50 6y ago
  This isn't and can't be a completely individual decision, though, any more than driving on the left is. It has to be coordinated, formally or informally.
- rntksi 6y ago
  As an aside, I don't understand this (living in Asian country). We've moved past that stage of thinking whether we should or not. If I feel like sneezing or have a fever some day, I'll have a mask on. It's customary here especially when riding public transport. That way I don't sneeze on others.
- kaba0 6y ago
  Sorry, but this is a really self-centric view on the issue. It is absolutely not an individual choice, and it should not be. Also, it is a hyperbole to compare it to “if it saves even one live”, when in reality you have to wear a mask to decrease the R rate, so that the country’s hospitals doesn’t get absolutely flooded with people due to the exponential rate of the infection - making them unable to cure people even if they were to need treatment for other reasons then covid. So basically, in order to have working modern medicine, everyone has to wear masks..

hedgehog 6y ago

There's plenty of evidence mask campaigns slow transmission. It's not fun but I see it as a minuscule sacrifice for me to wear a mask to the grocery store if it saves even one person a trip to the hospital. The sad reality is the grocery store _is_ a contaminated danger zone, and will be until we get this thing under control. The sliver of good news is that lowering the growth rate just slightly from above 1.0 to below will cause the epidemic to shrink dramatically. It's not like we need to reduce transmission by 100%. Not that you asked for it but my advice to you is to find more sources of joy in your daily life that aren't so affected. If you're bored shoot me an e-mail, I have plenty of extra projects :)

J-dawg 6y ago
> There's plenty of evidence mask campaigns slow transmission By how much do they slow transmission? > It's not fun but I see it as a minuscule sacrifice for me to wear a mask to the grocery store if it saves even one person a trip to the hospital People go to hospital with flu every year. You or I might have unknowingly spread it around and caused someone to go to hospital before. Will you wear a mask every flu season, forever? It's worth it if it saves even one person a trip to the hospital, right?
- me_me_me 6y ago
  I would have no problem with mask to be adopted as a thing that people do. Try changing this argument from 'wearing masks' to 'washing hands' or wearing seatbelt.
- juusto 6y ago
  >Will you wear a mask every flu season, forever? It's worth it if it saves even one person a trip to the hospital, right? Would it be so bad to wear a mask when flu season is around? Plenty of folks do in Asian countries to no inconvenience to their daily lives. I do hope that going forward we will be more educated on the benefits of wearing a mask here in the west and we take the lesson to heart. I doubt it though.
- hedgehog 6y ago
  Mask for crowded places and public transit to reduce flu? Sure. But that's not a remotely comparable situation for a few reasons: 1) seasonal flu has available vaccines, 2) seasonal flu kills orders of magnitude fewer people, 3) seasonal flu is much less contagious, 4) seasonal flu does not appear to have nearly the level of long-lasting incapacitation.

pjc50 6y ago

> most of the infections are happening in mask-free places such as between family members in the home Yes, and certain workplaces. But that's the distribution you'd expect if masks had a positive effect. (I would really like good league tables on where all the transmission is happening, including workplaces, schools, and universities, but that seems to be beyond the capacity of the UK state). The cost of not wearing masks is transmitting the disease, which, even if you and the person you transmit it to, do not experience symptoms, prolongs the pain. If we had 100% effective transmission prevention this would all be over by now. In some countries it is. The sooner people improve their anti-transmission behaviour the sooner they can stop doing it and we can all go back to the pub.

MagnumOpus 6y ago
> I would really like good league tables on where all the transmission is happening, including workplaces, schools, and universities, but that seems to be beyond the capacity of the UK state PHE has that league table, as widely reported in the press. E.g. https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-supermarkets-most-common-exposure-setting-for-catching-coronavirus-in-england-latest-data-shows-12136418 https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-supermarkets-most-common... Upshot: a huge amount of infections happen in schools where kids and teachers don't wear masks.