5 ms·

I think what people are missing is that this is a work of fiction. Any work of fiction is entitled to do whatever it wants really. So what if it white washes s

by seer 6y ago

I think what people are missing is that this is a work of fiction. Any work of fiction is entitled to do whatever it wants really. So what if it white washes stuff for the masses, maybe thats a good thing. If people experience the past only as a fictional place where people are gentle and sensitive, if there is wide acknowledgment of race and gender, in the way that we actually want from our society today, isn’t that for the better? Whenever I played Civilization as a kid and had “Mongolians build the pyramids” I never thought thats a historical fact, It just inspired me to read up some real info about it. Assassins creed series that I’ve played had a similar effect (just the ones up until Italy, haven’t played the newer ones). I read up a ton about the warring families of the renaissance and when I actually visited the historical places it was all the more interesting for it. I’m glad AC exists even in its current corporate PC form, the world is better for it than without I’d wager. Even the fact that people are discussing that there are inaccuracies means there is a conversation.

enkid 6y ago
This is dangerous stuff. What if there was an Assassin's Creed that showed slavery in a positive light? Or the glory of killing Rightists in China in the 50s? Or Turks killing Armenians in 1918? People might look into it, but a lot of people are going to take it at face value and even if they do look it up, there initial exposure is going to color their expectations.
- ceilingcorner 6y ago
  Then don’t take your ethical values from video games? This Puritanization of all art and entertainment is disturbing.
  - galangalalgol 6y ago
    I think the precise criticism is that it was already puritanized. I don't think the argument was thay they set out to make mysogynist nazi propaganda, but that the cliche reorganizing machine that is a AAA gamehouse looked around at society, gears whirled, and the resulting thing that would sell the best that came flying out was a combination of white supremacist mythology, mockery of christianity, and the devaluation of femininity. Its not a critique of the game so much as it is of the society that produced it.
    - ceilingcorner 6y ago
      If you are judging a piece of artwork by how much it conforms to your moral code, you’ve already lost. That isn’t what art is or should be about.
      - enkid 6y ago
        You absolutely have a right to judge a piece of artwork according to your moral code, just like the artist has a right to make something that goes against your moral code.
  - baud147258 6y ago
    if you deny the influence of pop-culture on how people see the past, you're deluding yourself.
  - stale2002 6y ago
    > Then don’t take your ethical values from video games? This Puritanization of all art and entertainment is disturbing. The point is more that the game developers were trying to whitewash and "purify" the game, and that these efforts results in a worse game, that is less accurate, and also problematic. If you are upset about the PC police causing problems in your video games, then you should be mad at the game developers for their decisions to do that.
- izacus 6y ago
  You could easily see this with release of movie Dunkirk - it pretty much completely erased the French defense line from mention (there's a short scene showing them basically sitting around) which caused a huge amount of english speaking internet to insult and disparage the French. Reality? The French fought tooth and nail to defend the British retreat from the beaches. The movie however deleted this from public conciousness by a simple omission, changing how people understand history. And this happens with Hollywood and blockbuster games all the time.
macspoofing 6y ago
>I think what people are missing is that this is a work of fiction. Any work of fiction is entitled to do whatever it wants really. I think you may want to qualify that statement a little bit. The author covers this point as well: "Imagine the equivalent of a game set in the American South or the Caribbean pre-1865 in which slavery was simply not present at all" Would you have any issues with AC:Confederacy game, where slavery is not a thing? Where the North is seen as evil, while South is seen as kind, gentle and chivalrous? That's the scale of what AC:Valhalla did to their portrayal of invading Vikings vs the Anglo-Saxon populations. >Whenever I played Civilization as a kid and had “Mongolians build the pyramids” I never thought thats a historical fact Did you read the article? The author points out a few historical inaccuracies (like the lack of mail armor being worn) but also mentions that those are not a big deal because he understands that this isn't a historical simulation. That's not a problem with the game, although it is nice and appreciated when the artist takes care to cover even the small details.
- seer 6y ago
  I was mostly talking about the usual HN commentary that I see on this and similar topics, sorry if I was misleading or not specific enough. I don’t believe creators are obliged to create the most accurate thing that every expert expects, in fact for a lot of topics experts disagree so that might be impossible to accomplish. They can focus on some things, ignore others, I mean thats what a work of fiction really is. As they say no model is perfect, some models are useful. Historically good works of fiction provide a catalyst for social commentary, no need to be perfect, and they can focus on the specific issues they want. For example I wouldn’t call “Paradise Lost” in any way accurate, but it had a profound effect on society, arguable for the better, when it was published. If we’re expected to view works of art from the context of their time, and not associate modern sensibilities to them, the I would guess modern works should also be viewed through the modern lens too. I’m personally happy with that, as long as we’re engaging and talking about the missing pieces.
toomanybeersies 6y ago
People still believe that Vikings had horns on their helmets, thanks to popular culture portraying them that way.

by seer 6y ago

enkid 6y ago

This is dangerous stuff. What if there was an Assassin's Creed that showed slavery in a positive light? Or the glory of killing Rightists in China in the 50s? Or Turks killing Armenians in 1918? People might look into it, but a lot of people are going to take it at face value and even if they do look it up, there initial exposure is going to color their expectations.

ceilingcorner 6y ago
Then don’t take your ethical values from video games? This Puritanization of all art and entertainment is disturbing.
- galangalalgol 6y ago
  I think the precise criticism is that it was already puritanized. I don't think the argument was thay they set out to make mysogynist nazi propaganda, but that the cliche reorganizing machine that is a AAA gamehouse looked around at society, gears whirled, and the resulting thing that would sell the best that came flying out was a combination of white supremacist mythology, mockery of christianity, and the devaluation of femininity. Its not a critique of the game so much as it is of the society that produced it.
  - ceilingcorner 6y ago
    If you are judging a piece of artwork by how much it conforms to your moral code, you’ve already lost. That isn’t what art is or should be about.
    - enkid 6y ago
      You absolutely have a right to judge a piece of artwork according to your moral code, just like the artist has a right to make something that goes against your moral code.
- baud147258 6y ago
  if you deny the influence of pop-culture on how people see the past, you're deluding yourself.
- stale2002 6y ago
  > Then don’t take your ethical values from video games? This Puritanization of all art and entertainment is disturbing. The point is more that the game developers were trying to whitewash and "purify" the game, and that these efforts results in a worse game, that is less accurate, and also problematic. If you are upset about the PC police causing problems in your video games, then you should be mad at the game developers for their decisions to do that.
izacus 6y ago
You could easily see this with release of movie Dunkirk - it pretty much completely erased the French defense line from mention (there's a short scene showing them basically sitting around) which caused a huge amount of english speaking internet to insult and disparage the French. Reality? The French fought tooth and nail to defend the British retreat from the beaches. The movie however deleted this from public conciousness by a simple omission, changing how people understand history. And this happens with Hollywood and blockbuster games all the time.

macspoofing 6y ago

>I think what people are missing is that this is a work of fiction. Any work of fiction is entitled to do whatever it wants really. I think you may want to qualify that statement a little bit. The author covers this point as well: "Imagine the equivalent of a game set in the American South or the Caribbean pre-1865 in which slavery was simply not present at all" Would you have any issues with AC:Confederacy game, where slavery is not a thing? Where the North is seen as evil, while South is seen as kind, gentle and chivalrous? That's the scale of what AC:Valhalla did to their portrayal of invading Vikings vs the Anglo-Saxon populations. >Whenever I played Civilization as a kid and had “Mongolians build the pyramids” I never thought thats a historical fact Did you read the article? The author points out a few historical inaccuracies (like the lack of mail armor being worn) but also mentions that those are not a big deal because he understands that this isn't a historical simulation. That's not a problem with the game, although it is nice and appreciated when the artist takes care to cover even the small details.

seer 6y ago
I was mostly talking about the usual HN commentary that I see on this and similar topics, sorry if I was misleading or not specific enough. I don’t believe creators are obliged to create the most accurate thing that every expert expects, in fact for a lot of topics experts disagree so that might be impossible to accomplish. They can focus on some things, ignore others, I mean thats what a work of fiction really is. As they say no model is perfect, some models are useful. Historically good works of fiction provide a catalyst for social commentary, no need to be perfect, and they can focus on the specific issues they want. For example I wouldn’t call “Paradise Lost” in any way accurate, but it had a profound effect on society, arguable for the better, when it was published. If we’re expected to view works of art from the context of their time, and not associate modern sensibilities to them, the I would guess modern works should also be viewed through the modern lens too. I’m personally happy with that, as long as we’re engaging and talking about the missing pieces.

toomanybeersies 6y ago

People still believe that Vikings had horns on their helmets, thanks to popular culture portraying them that way.