5 ms·

Because games are supposed to be fun and it’s more fun if the player feels included.

by hackerbabz 6y ago

flyinglizard 6y ago
I never once played a violent game and felt the need to have my own character included.
himinlomax 6y ago
Do you feel excluded by samurai games?
- hackerbabz 6y ago
  No because I’m white and I can play a million games with white protagonists. I don’t need to be included in every game. If I were nonwhite I think I’d want to be included in some games, yes.
  - mansion7 6y ago
    Are nonwhites incapable of making games to represent themselves?
    - hackerbabz 6y ago
      Yeah lets just racially segregate game development.
      - poisonarena 6y ago
        That is not at all an answer to the question. But if you have an answer, I would like to read it.
        hackerbabz 6y ago
        No thanks.
    - himinlomax 6y ago
      That's really not the point; Ghost of Tsushima is based in Japan with Japanese and Mongolian characters but was made by a US developer.
      - cptnapalm 6y ago
        Some of the stuff outside the game was amusing. There were all these white progressives complaining about cultural appropriation, on one hand, and on the other a bunch of Japanese people celebrating how awesome the game was.
    - pas 6y ago
      They are capable, but market forces were creating a monoculture which made it harder for them to make them, and some people voiced their concerns regarding this phenomena. (The regular systemic inequality problem, which means the status quo is hard to change, because the advantages/disadvantages are propagated.) Okay, and how big the videogame representation aspect of this problem is? Yep, good question, but even if it's small, it doesn't invalidate it.
    - bluedino 6y ago
      This comment is being downvoted, but I'll reply to it. In the 90's there was a short-lived company called Motown Software (who's parent company was Motown Records), created to make video games for African-American players. They released two video games: Bebe's Kids and Rap Jam: Volume One.
  - himinlomax 6y ago
    I must point out two problematic assumptions in your reply: First, you're assuming "minorities" (and just that word is a problem, as it's utterly US-centric) are insecure and hypersensitive, which is quite patronizing. Second, this is the line of thinking that has led privileged American influencers to accuse slavic developers of neo-colonialism when they just wanted to represent their own otherwise underrepresented culture. See the reactions to CD Projekt Red's The Witcher 3 or Warhorse Studio's Kingdom Come: Deliverance. This is particularly infuriating when considering how Poland or Czechia have been victims of imperialism themselves, and quite recently to boot.
    - hackerbabz 6y ago
      I didn’t use the word “minorities”, so please read my post again. I said include in “some games”. There can be games that justify being all white, sure. The rest can have nonwhite characters without ruining any white person’s day. Furthermore, this is not the main problem with AC and I now regret taking up this bait. The game is either a willing or unwilling nazi racial theory apology. Let’s focus on the implications of that please.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - pas 6y ago
      Probably the smart move is to make the playable character customizable (so you can be a black samurai girl with pink hair or whatever). (Though naturally there will be some people who will feel that's just not enough. But that doesn't mean that these voices are right. Creators/publishers/developers have the right to make whatever game they feel like, with as much "accuracy" as they want.)
    - Kaze404 6y ago
      As a minority, I agree with OP. I've been playing video games for my entire life and the only Hispanic main character I can think of is that guy from Shadows of the Damned, which had potential to be great since it was made by my two favorite directors, but it's just awful. The character (along with every other) is terribly written and their qualities, like his origins, only come up to be played for cheap laughs. Horrendous. That said, I really enjoy Lucio from Overwatch in every way I can think of.
  - ekianjo 6y ago
    You are not nonwhite so please dont speak for nonwhite people.
    - hackerbabz 6y ago
      Are you nonwhite and you don’t like being represented in videogames?
  - poisonarena 6y ago
    I think the problem, is because if I can't play a black guy in a Japanese samurai game, its okay, because it is a samurai game, and its normal to think that. But if you hold that view to medieval europe games set in Poland or northern europe, that added artificial diversity so there are less whites and more representation thats a good thing. It is like a double standard I guess, and if you even question it, you are not progressive or fair. I never see articles on Rock Paper Shotgun saying JRGs or Samurai games are needing more diversity.
    - literallycancer 6y ago
      It's because it only counts as woke if US lefties can identify with it. I challenge anyone who thinks medieval Europe games lack diversity to walk around some cities in Poland or Ukraine and then bitch about how the cast of their games is not representative of the population :-) But you can't win an argument with stupid. We wuz kings and all that.
  - forest_dweller 6y ago
    There are loads of games with characters from every corner of the planet as playable characters. Why do people always pretend they don't exist? Just having a cursory look over my collection on steam: * Streets of Rage had black, white, asian, men and women. * Street Fighter had every nationality on earth represented. * Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas. Almost all the characters were black. * Grand Theft Auto V - One of the main playable characters is Black (there are 3) * Sleeping Dogs which is set in Hong Kong so they are Chinese. * Yakuza Series - Japanese. * Prey (the first one) you play a Native American. * Prey (the new one) you appear to be of Asian decent (probably chinese if I were to guess as the surname is Chu). * Assassins Creed - Altair is a Arab. * Assassins Creed 3 - Ratonhnhaké - Mixed Native American and White. * Kratos - Greek * King Pin - Black * Aladdin - Arab * Loads of Micheal Jackson games (Black) The Grand Theft Auto series on its own has sold million and millions of copies. I am still not including all the games where you can literally design your character to be anything you want. Or all the strategy games where you can choose your historical factions such as Age of Empires. > If I were nonwhite I think I’d want to be included in some games, yes. Have you ever thought that other people don't judge or identify characters in their entertainment on what race they are? I couldn't give a monkeys the race of a game protagonist. It literally doesn't enter into my mind. Why are you soo pre-occupied with it is the real question? It only seems to be rich white people in the US (nobody cares about this shit in Europe btw because our identities are based on our nationality) seem to care about it.
    - benrbray 6y ago
      > It only seems to be rich white people in the US seem to care about it I do think there is a kernel of truth to what you're saying, but I don't think it's right to dismiss entirely the fact that representation IS important. Historically, "rich white people" have been in control of the media, so it's great to see this group becoming more self aware. Sure, from time to time there is some overcorrection, but eventually things will settle down and the world will be better for it. We should let people with compelling stories tell their stories! Now that streaming is the norm, there's room for everyone, now that we're not limited to only the stories which are marketable for primetime. Speaking from my own experience, I have been so so happy to see so much positive representation of LGBTQ characters in mainstream television / movies lately. As a kid, I had no positive examples of LGBTQ adults in my life, so I had no choice but to struggle by myself. Whether we like it or not, many children learn about the world through television. It would be difficult to express in words how deeply moved I was to learn that Disney Channel aired a children's show ("Andi Mack", [1]) with a gay main character, whose relationship with another male character was a major plotline. Shows like this give LGBTQ kids characters they can relate to, and gives non-LGBTQ kids a positive story about someone who is different from them. That children today might not need to deal with the same pain and isolation that I felt as a kid makes me so incredibly happy. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andi_Mack#:~:text=Andi%20Mack%20is%20the%20top,the%20news%20as%20being%20historic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andi_Mack#:~:text=Andi%20Mack%....
Lev1a 6y ago
> Because games are supposed to be fun [...] I'm gonna have to disagree with you here and reiterate a point from a "Co-optional Podcast" episode from years ago: Games don't _have to be_ "FUN", they have to be "compelling" / "engaging". The thought that games can only be fun is a relic from video games's infancy stage much the same as once upon a time when films/movies were new and there were only short slapstick flicks. The medium film matured to where a film can be about utterly horrible things/ideas but it's still seen as a good piece of media because it was "engaging" on some level.
- tdsamardzhiev 6y ago
  Fun-centrism certainly helps if you're making something that (1) targets mainstream audience and (2) takes 50+ hours to finish.
- chongli 6y ago
  That’s a great point. If someone panned Schindler’s List because it doesn’t include Larry, Moe, or Curly, we’d rightfully tell the person to revisit their ground-level assumptions about what makes for good cinema. The fact that we still have this problem in video games really points to their immaturity as a medium.
  - bigbubba 6y ago
    I think the problem is the term 'game.' If you made 'The Schindler's List VR Experience' that would be reasonable, but if the same software was called 'The Schindler's List Video Game', that would sound crass and disrespectful. Games, computerized or not, are generally understood to be for amusement (maybe unless you're talking to mathematicians.)
- bigbubba 6y ago
  I wish the games that aren't meant to be fun would state this plainly in their promotional material. "Buy our new awkward conversation asset flip; it's NOT FUN!!"
konjin 6y ago
>Because games are supposed to be fun and it’s more fun if the player feels included. Yes, playing CKIII I feel the need to be included when I setup an African cannibal tribe that invades Europe and commits genocide.

Because games are supposed to be fun and it’s more fun if the player feels included.

flyinglizard 6y ago

I never once played a violent game and felt the need to have my own character included.

himinlomax 6y ago

Do you feel excluded by samurai games?

hackerbabz 6y ago
No because I’m white and I can play a million games with white protagonists. I don’t need to be included in every game. If I were nonwhite I think I’d want to be included in some games, yes.
- mansion7 6y ago
  Are nonwhites incapable of making games to represent themselves?
  - hackerbabz 6y ago
    Yeah lets just racially segregate game development.
    - poisonarena 6y ago
      That is not at all an answer to the question. But if you have an answer, I would like to read it.
      - hackerbabz 6y ago
        No thanks.
  - himinlomax 6y ago
    That's really not the point; Ghost of Tsushima is based in Japan with Japanese and Mongolian characters but was made by a US developer.
    - cptnapalm 6y ago
      Some of the stuff outside the game was amusing. There were all these white progressives complaining about cultural appropriation, on one hand, and on the other a bunch of Japanese people celebrating how awesome the game was.
  - pas 6y ago
    They are capable, but market forces were creating a monoculture which made it harder for them to make them, and some people voiced their concerns regarding this phenomena. (The regular systemic inequality problem, which means the status quo is hard to change, because the advantages/disadvantages are propagated.) Okay, and how big the videogame representation aspect of this problem is? Yep, good question, but even if it's small, it doesn't invalidate it.
  - bluedino 6y ago
    This comment is being downvoted, but I'll reply to it. In the 90's there was a short-lived company called Motown Software (who's parent company was Motown Records), created to make video games for African-American players. They released two video games: Bebe's Kids and Rap Jam: Volume One.
- himinlomax 6y ago
  I must point out two problematic assumptions in your reply: First, you're assuming "minorities" (and just that word is a problem, as it's utterly US-centric) are insecure and hypersensitive, which is quite patronizing. Second, this is the line of thinking that has led privileged American influencers to accuse slavic developers of neo-colonialism when they just wanted to represent their own otherwise underrepresented culture. See the reactions to CD Projekt Red's The Witcher 3 or Warhorse Studio's Kingdom Come: Deliverance. This is particularly infuriating when considering how Poland or Czechia have been victims of imperialism themselves, and quite recently to boot.
  - hackerbabz 6y ago
    I didn’t use the word “minorities”, so please read my post again. I said include in “some games”. There can be games that justify being all white, sure. The rest can have nonwhite characters without ruining any white person’s day. Furthermore, this is not the main problem with AC and I now regret taking up this bait. The game is either a willing or unwilling nazi racial theory apology. Let’s focus on the implications of that please.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - pas 6y ago
    Probably the smart move is to make the playable character customizable (so you can be a black samurai girl with pink hair or whatever). (Though naturally there will be some people who will feel that's just not enough. But that doesn't mean that these voices are right. Creators/publishers/developers have the right to make whatever game they feel like, with as much "accuracy" as they want.)
  - Kaze404 6y ago
    As a minority, I agree with OP. I've been playing video games for my entire life and the only Hispanic main character I can think of is that guy from Shadows of the Damned, which had potential to be great since it was made by my two favorite directors, but it's just awful. The character (along with every other) is terribly written and their qualities, like his origins, only come up to be played for cheap laughs. Horrendous. That said, I really enjoy Lucio from Overwatch in every way I can think of.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  You are not nonwhite so please dont speak for nonwhite people.
  - hackerbabz 6y ago
    Are you nonwhite and you don’t like being represented in videogames?
- poisonarena 6y ago
  I think the problem, is because if I can't play a black guy in a Japanese samurai game, its okay, because it is a samurai game, and its normal to think that. But if you hold that view to medieval europe games set in Poland or northern europe, that added artificial diversity so there are less whites and more representation thats a good thing. It is like a double standard I guess, and if you even question it, you are not progressive or fair. I never see articles on Rock Paper Shotgun saying JRGs or Samurai games are needing more diversity.
  - literallycancer 6y ago
    It's because it only counts as woke if US lefties can identify with it. I challenge anyone who thinks medieval Europe games lack diversity to walk around some cities in Poland or Ukraine and then bitch about how the cast of their games is not representative of the population :-) But you can't win an argument with stupid. We wuz kings and all that.
- forest_dweller 6y ago
  There are loads of games with characters from every corner of the planet as playable characters. Why do people always pretend they don't exist? Just having a cursory look over my collection on steam: * Streets of Rage had black, white, asian, men and women. * Street Fighter had every nationality on earth represented. * Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas. Almost all the characters were black. * Grand Theft Auto V - One of the main playable characters is Black (there are 3) * Sleeping Dogs which is set in Hong Kong so they are Chinese. * Yakuza Series - Japanese. * Prey (the first one) you play a Native American. * Prey (the new one) you appear to be of Asian decent (probably chinese if I were to guess as the surname is Chu). * Assassins Creed - Altair is a Arab. * Assassins Creed 3 - Ratonhnhaké - Mixed Native American and White. * Kratos - Greek * King Pin - Black * Aladdin - Arab * Loads of Micheal Jackson games (Black) The Grand Theft Auto series on its own has sold million and millions of copies. I am still not including all the games where you can literally design your character to be anything you want. Or all the strategy games where you can choose your historical factions such as Age of Empires. > If I were nonwhite I think I’d want to be included in some games, yes. Have you ever thought that other people don't judge or identify characters in their entertainment on what race they are? I couldn't give a monkeys the race of a game protagonist. It literally doesn't enter into my mind. Why are you soo pre-occupied with it is the real question? It only seems to be rich white people in the US (nobody cares about this shit in Europe btw because our identities are based on our nationality) seem to care about it.
  - benrbray 6y ago
    > It only seems to be rich white people in the US seem to care about it I do think there is a kernel of truth to what you're saying, but I don't think it's right to dismiss entirely the fact that representation IS important. Historically, "rich white people" have been in control of the media, so it's great to see this group becoming more self aware. Sure, from time to time there is some overcorrection, but eventually things will settle down and the world will be better for it. We should let people with compelling stories tell their stories! Now that streaming is the norm, there's room for everyone, now that we're not limited to only the stories which are marketable for primetime. Speaking from my own experience, I have been so so happy to see so much positive representation of LGBTQ characters in mainstream television / movies lately. As a kid, I had no positive examples of LGBTQ adults in my life, so I had no choice but to struggle by myself. Whether we like it or not, many children learn about the world through television. It would be difficult to express in words how deeply moved I was to learn that Disney Channel aired a children's show ("Andi Mack", [1]) with a gay main character, whose relationship with another male character was a major plotline. Shows like this give LGBTQ kids characters they can relate to, and gives non-LGBTQ kids a positive story about someone who is different from them. That children today might not need to deal with the same pain and isolation that I felt as a kid makes me so incredibly happy. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andi_Mack#:~:text=Andi%20Mack%20is%20the%20top,the%20news%20as%20being%20historic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andi_Mack#:~:text=Andi%20Mack%....

Lev1a 6y ago

> Because games are supposed to be fun [...] I'm gonna have to disagree with you here and reiterate a point from a "Co-optional Podcast" episode from years ago: Games don't _have to be_ "FUN", they have to be "compelling" / "engaging". The thought that games can only be fun is a relic from video games's infancy stage much the same as once upon a time when films/movies were new and there were only short slapstick flicks. The medium film matured to where a film can be about utterly horrible things/ideas but it's still seen as a good piece of media because it was "engaging" on some level.

tdsamardzhiev 6y ago
Fun-centrism certainly helps if you're making something that (1) targets mainstream audience and (2) takes 50+ hours to finish.
chongli 6y ago
That’s a great point. If someone panned Schindler’s List because it doesn’t include Larry, Moe, or Curly, we’d rightfully tell the person to revisit their ground-level assumptions about what makes for good cinema. The fact that we still have this problem in video games really points to their immaturity as a medium.
- bigbubba 6y ago
  I think the problem is the term 'game.' If you made 'The Schindler's List VR Experience' that would be reasonable, but if the same software was called 'The Schindler's List Video Game', that would sound crass and disrespectful. Games, computerized or not, are generally understood to be for amusement (maybe unless you're talking to mathematicians.)
bigbubba 6y ago
I wish the games that aren't meant to be fun would state this plainly in their promotional material. "Buy our new awkward conversation asset flip; it's NOT FUN!!"

konjin 6y ago

>Because games are supposed to be fun and it’s more fun if the player feels included. Yes, playing CKIII I feel the need to be included when I setup an African cannibal tribe that invades Europe and commits genocide.