5 ms·

Sure, but for almost everyone, there's a dollar figure at which they're willing to stop having fun and start making money. Maybe that dollar figure is $1,000/hr

Sure, but for almost everyone, there's a dollar figure at which they're willing to stop having fun and start making money. Maybe that dollar figure is $1,000/hr for some open source maintainer out there (I bet it's much lower for most of them). Why not put a line in the readme which says, if you want to commission a specific change, send me an email to discuss, my consulting rate starts at $XXX/hr. Or there's a $YYYY project minimum, or whatever is meaningful to the maintainer. If that feels too aggressive then leave the dollar figures out. Hard to imagine this running afoul of any reasonable community norms, especially for a project which already has the problem of too many people asking for things. Maintainers can handle this problem however they like, but I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone who's not getting paid, if they've never asked to be paid. I think they would be better off asking. And again, if no one inquires - then nothing changes, it's still a 100% hobby project, with the bonus that the expectation to do other people's shit for free is gone.

strogonoff 6y ago
If OSS project maintainer offers “fixes for money”, then could there be a conflict of interest? Merging a PR that scratches some obvious itch would be equivalent to robbing my family of money I could earn by charging a BigCo and doing it myself. IMO one of the best ways to contribute to OSS while making some living is to do product development and/or consulting work, and structure it so that you can methodically encapsulate and open up the components involved. Of course, this unfortunately does not apply to every project out there, but I believe Django was born and had been developed this way for example, as well as probably many well-known projects that we don’t know the precise origins of.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Kinrany 6y ago
  This can probably be fixed by splitting the platforms/features into tiers. Tier 1 is always fixed ASAP, tier 2 means that good contributions will be merged, tier 3 changes will only happen if sponsored.
ritchiea 6y ago
Maybe but I've reached out to open source maintainers to offer them contracting work focused on their library and they have pretty much unanimously replied that they are too busy. And we were willing to pay above market rates to work on a product that has a significant global user base. There's definitely culture, process & funding problems around open source but for the most part being an open source maintainer seems like it's very good for your career. I suspect being an open source project maintainer is a self selecting grind.
bawolff 6y ago
I imagine if someone is willing to pay a maintainer $1000/hr (implying they are that desperate to hire someone), the maintainer wouldn't need a line in the readme to hear about it. As someone who tried their hand at doing paid "consulting" work on an open source project i contributed to (just very briefly when i was between jobs. I wasn't very succesful at it. Nobody offered me $1000/hr) most of the jobs were very small and there was a surprising amount of overhead between getting different jobs (maybe not that surprising, i was probably just naive). Decently big $$$/hr translated to less than i thought it would in practise. > Maintainers can handle this problem however they like, but I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone who's not getting paid What exactly are you feeling sorry for, and would $$$ alleviate the issue? People don't go into open source software to become millionaires, and money will not fix burnout. > with the bonus that the expectation to do other people's shit for free is gone. People will always try to get you to do shit for free, even if its a paid project by a company. Not being paid at least means you can tell off the people you don't like really easily.
- rleigh 6y ago
  This was exactly my experience of "consulting". I too was between jobs, and it seemed like an idea worth trying. At the very least, something interesting to keep me occupied while unemployed. And it was an interesting experience to set up and run a company, which I don't begrudge. But when I looked at my effective hourly rate, it was below minimum wage. It did give me some perspective on running companies, negotiating contracts and billing with an hourly/daily rate vs fixed price per contract. I would certainly increase what I was billing by several times were I to repeat it, but having a sustainable source of business before starting would also be something I would factor in.
rleigh 6y ago
Having a full-time and well-paid job means that open source work is in my spare time, and that time is limited and precious. I don't actually want to be paid for that. Or have any written or unwritten major obligations to others. The amount I need would have to be a full-time job that pays better than my current full-time job, and that will be expensive. I've previously worked on large open-source projects like Debian, taking upon many obligations and essentially working a second full-time but unpaid job. That's definitely unsustainable, and I quit for several reasons with this being the major factor. Working like this is definitely not in anyone's self-interest. Like another poster in this part of the thread, I have tried my hand at open-source consulting work, and I didn't have a viable business. You can't rely upon the sporadic needs of end users; you need something more sustainable, and not every project can support that. This is coming from a UK perspective, but if you're earning money in anything more than trivial quantities, you need to register as a sole trader or create a limited company. That brings with it legal obligations, and other obligations, like bookkeeping, separate bank accounts, corporation tax payment, company reports and tax returns, personal tax returns and more. That makes for a lot of friction to take payments, and is a huge amount of hassle and inconvenience. But these are all factors in why I don't currently have any intention to make money from open source projects. There needs to be a way to narrow the gap required to make the transition from unpaid to paid work without all of the overheads of running a full company. Maybe there are ways around that to make it an easier burden to bear.
- names_are_hard 6y ago
  I have the same issue as you, not in open source but in freelancing. Occasionally I'm approached by someone in my network who needs a few hours of software development. In the past I tried this, figuring that I may as well earn a few bucks on the side during my free time. But then I realized the enormous overhead that comes with taking payments in Israel. I'd need to open an account with the tax authorities and deal with a bunch of paperwork I don't understand. So now I'm busy learning the tax system or hiring an accountant... it's just not worth it unless they're going to commit to a large amount of hours, but I do value my free time as well. So either you pay me enough to quit my full-time job at a big company or forget about it. It's hard to do small amounts of freelance work because of the onerous regulatory environment. All this is different for USians, who have to file tax returns every year anyway and simply need to add another source of income on their 1040.

strogonoff 6y ago

If OSS project maintainer offers “fixes for money”, then could there be a conflict of interest? Merging a PR that scratches some obvious itch would be equivalent to robbing my family of money I could earn by charging a BigCo and doing it myself. IMO one of the best ways to contribute to OSS while making some living is to do product development and/or consulting work, and structure it so that you can methodically encapsulate and open up the components involved. Of course, this unfortunately does not apply to every project out there, but I believe Django was born and had been developed this way for example, as well as probably many well-known projects that we don’t know the precise origins of.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Kinrany 6y ago
This can probably be fixed by splitting the platforms/features into tiers. Tier 1 is always fixed ASAP, tier 2 means that good contributions will be merged, tier 3 changes will only happen if sponsored.

ritchiea 6y ago

Maybe but I've reached out to open source maintainers to offer them contracting work focused on their library and they have pretty much unanimously replied that they are too busy. And we were willing to pay above market rates to work on a product that has a significant global user base. There's definitely culture, process & funding problems around open source but for the most part being an open source maintainer seems like it's very good for your career. I suspect being an open source project maintainer is a self selecting grind.

bawolff 6y ago

I imagine if someone is willing to pay a maintainer $1000/hr (implying they are that desperate to hire someone), the maintainer wouldn't need a line in the readme to hear about it. As someone who tried their hand at doing paid "consulting" work on an open source project i contributed to (just very briefly when i was between jobs. I wasn't very succesful at it. Nobody offered me $1000/hr) most of the jobs were very small and there was a surprising amount of overhead between getting different jobs (maybe not that surprising, i was probably just naive). Decently big $$$/hr translated to less than i thought it would in practise. > Maintainers can handle this problem however they like, but I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone who's not getting paid What exactly are you feeling sorry for, and would $$$ alleviate the issue? People don't go into open source software to become millionaires, and money will not fix burnout. > with the bonus that the expectation to do other people's shit for free is gone. People will always try to get you to do shit for free, even if its a paid project by a company. Not being paid at least means you can tell off the people you don't like really easily.

rleigh 6y ago
This was exactly my experience of "consulting". I too was between jobs, and it seemed like an idea worth trying. At the very least, something interesting to keep me occupied while unemployed. And it was an interesting experience to set up and run a company, which I don't begrudge. But when I looked at my effective hourly rate, it was below minimum wage. It did give me some perspective on running companies, negotiating contracts and billing with an hourly/daily rate vs fixed price per contract. I would certainly increase what I was billing by several times were I to repeat it, but having a sustainable source of business before starting would also be something I would factor in.

rleigh 6y ago

Having a full-time and well-paid job means that open source work is in my spare time, and that time is limited and precious. I don't actually want to be paid for that. Or have any written or unwritten major obligations to others. The amount I need would have to be a full-time job that pays better than my current full-time job, and that will be expensive. I've previously worked on large open-source projects like Debian, taking upon many obligations and essentially working a second full-time but unpaid job. That's definitely unsustainable, and I quit for several reasons with this being the major factor. Working like this is definitely not in anyone's self-interest. Like another poster in this part of the thread, I have tried my hand at open-source consulting work, and I didn't have a viable business. You can't rely upon the sporadic needs of end users; you need something more sustainable, and not every project can support that. This is coming from a UK perspective, but if you're earning money in anything more than trivial quantities, you need to register as a sole trader or create a limited company. That brings with it legal obligations, and other obligations, like bookkeeping, separate bank accounts, corporation tax payment, company reports and tax returns, personal tax returns and more. That makes for a lot of friction to take payments, and is a huge amount of hassle and inconvenience. But these are all factors in why I don't currently have any intention to make money from open source projects. There needs to be a way to narrow the gap required to make the transition from unpaid to paid work without all of the overheads of running a full company. Maybe there are ways around that to make it an easier burden to bear.

names_are_hard 6y ago
I have the same issue as you, not in open source but in freelancing. Occasionally I'm approached by someone in my network who needs a few hours of software development. In the past I tried this, figuring that I may as well earn a few bucks on the side during my free time. But then I realized the enormous overhead that comes with taking payments in Israel. I'd need to open an account with the tax authorities and deal with a bunch of paperwork I don't understand. So now I'm busy learning the tax system or hiring an accountant... it's just not worth it unless they're going to commit to a large amount of hours, but I do value my free time as well. So either you pay me enough to quit my full-time job at a big company or forget about it. It's hard to do small amounts of freelance work because of the onerous regulatory environment. All this is different for USians, who have to file tax returns every year anyway and simply need to add another source of income on their 1040.