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I sympathize with people who want to see a technological basis for this, I really do. I just don't buy it. We just saw a press conference an hour ago by the e

I sympathize with people who want to see a technological basis for this, I really do. I just don't buy it. We just saw a press conference an hour ago by the executive office of the most powerful nation in the world allege with a straight face that the recent election was tainted by Canadian election machines running malicious software written by Venezuela, Cuba, "likely" China, and directed by George Soros and (from the grave -- I swear I'm not making this up) Hugo Chavez. And obviously evidence was provided for none of this. People are going to believe that. LOTS of people are going to believe that. And it's not because of "information overload". It's just a lie. It's a lie that (1) is tempting for people to believe and (2) that someone is willing to tell. The internet didn't make our brains more susceptible to fake news. It just made our leaders (some of them) more able to get away with lies.

zygotic 6y ago
Whole heartedly agree. Nailed it and sailed it.
jeffbee 6y ago
The question for me is whether these people are huffing their own product, or they know they are lying. If Sydney Powell sincerely subscribes to the idea that Hugo Chavez, who died seven years ago, hacked the 2020 US election, then that has broad implications about the way we've underestimated the whole Boomer lead poisoning thing.
chordalkeyboard 6y ago
> And obviously evidence was provided for none of this. what kind of evidence would you expect to see if it was true?
- loopz 6y ago
  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This is just hijacking criticism of authority, to start an authoritarian cult of lies, bullying and manipulation.
  - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
    again, "what evidence would you expect to see?" Also, I hardly think that the notion that people conspired to cheat an election is extraordinary. Rather it would be extraordinary if they did not. Also as regards the suspension of belief necessary to consider elections overseas to be corrupt but not in this bastion of freedom and democracy, the good ol' U.S.A.
    - klyrs 6y ago
      There have been quite a few lawsuits about the alleged conspiracies to cheat the election. Most of them have been thrown out for lack of evidence. But yeah, conspiracy to cheat the election has occurred in the last few days. Thankfully, those efforts have failed spectacularly. https://abcnews.go.com/US/wayne-county-republican-canvassers-rescind-votes-certifying-election/story?id=74290114 https://abcnews.go.com/US/wayne-county-republican-canvassers...
      - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
        > But yeah, conspiracy to cheat the election has occurred in the last few days. Thankfully, those efforts have failed spectacularly. uncharitably, this would be an extraordinary claim. Fortunately I'm not under the impression that election fraud never happens, so I can use normal standards of evidence for this. And it does appear that some chicanery is afoot, considering those members changed their vote after being pressured and possibly having their families threatened: https://twitter.com/kylenabecker/status/1329090338984583168 https://twitter.com/kylenabecker/status/1329090338984583168
- newacct583 6y ago
  An exploit demo? An incriminating email? Testimony from Chavez's ghost? Hell, I'd take a suspicious correlation between firmware version and vote count, even. I'm not picky. But that's the problem, isn't it? You want the standard of evidence for reporting an allegation (e.g. "the election was stolen") to place the burden of proof on the listener ("Well, you can't prove the election was NOT stolen, can you?"). And that's pretty much the definition of "fake news". It's a lie. And they tell the lie because they know you'll believe it. And that's the problem. Not "information overload".
  - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
    > An exploit demo? Been done, pentesters have been crying about this for years. > An incriminating email? After the compromise of the Clinton email server I think they learned their lesson there. > Hell, I'd take a suspicious correlation between firmware version and vote count, even. I'm not picky. Theres been some technical arguments but they require some expertise to evaluate and probably aren't suited for a presser. > But that's the problem, isn't it? You want the standard of evidence for reporting an allegation (e.g. "the election was stolen") to place the burden of proof on the listener ("Well, you can't prove the election was NOT stolen, can you?"). its a bit ironic that you can ignore existing evidence in favor of a contrary belief but claim the other side isn't presenting evidence. > And that's pretty much the definition of "fake news". It's a lie. And they tell the lie because they know you'll believe it. And that's the problem. Not "information overload". Oh I don't believe shit. its just odd that people are so insistent that this election was all on the up and up with no evidence whereas they aren't even willing to consider that someone might cheat in an election because "that would leave evidence and I haven't seen any"
    - newacct583 6y ago
      Link to a verified pentest report on the Dominion machines they're talking about that shows this kind of thing is possible? Genuinely curious. I promise I'm not ignoring evidence, I literally haven't seen it. Edit: and in the other direction, any input on why the non-machine hand count which just completed in Georgia affirmed the results from the original count? Doesn't that pretty much eliminate the whole conspiracy theory?
galaxyLogic 6y ago
There should be a penalty for spreading lies. And further your reach, the bigger the number of followers you have, the bigger the penalty should be.
- TechBro8615 6y ago
  Yes, and perhaps President-Elect Biden can setup an office to handle dissemination of these lies. Perhaps he could call it The Ministry of Truth.
  - galaxyLogic 6y ago
    If people want to believe lies there's no cure for them. Like many people surely want to believe that Covid-19 is a hoax, because they 1. Want it to be so 2. Want to believe the president they love so much. But reality will catch up, when a loved one is in ICU

zygotic 6y ago

Whole heartedly agree. Nailed it and sailed it.

jeffbee 6y ago

The question for me is whether these people are huffing their own product, or they know they are lying. If Sydney Powell sincerely subscribes to the idea that Hugo Chavez, who died seven years ago, hacked the 2020 US election, then that has broad implications about the way we've underestimated the whole Boomer lead poisoning thing.

chordalkeyboard 6y ago

> And obviously evidence was provided for none of this. what kind of evidence would you expect to see if it was true?

loopz 6y ago
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This is just hijacking criticism of authority, to start an authoritarian cult of lies, bullying and manipulation.
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  again, "what evidence would you expect to see?" Also, I hardly think that the notion that people conspired to cheat an election is extraordinary. Rather it would be extraordinary if they did not. Also as regards the suspension of belief necessary to consider elections overseas to be corrupt but not in this bastion of freedom and democracy, the good ol' U.S.A.
  - klyrs 6y ago
    There have been quite a few lawsuits about the alleged conspiracies to cheat the election. Most of them have been thrown out for lack of evidence. But yeah, conspiracy to cheat the election has occurred in the last few days. Thankfully, those efforts have failed spectacularly. https://abcnews.go.com/US/wayne-county-republican-canvassers-rescind-votes-certifying-election/story?id=74290114 https://abcnews.go.com/US/wayne-county-republican-canvassers...
    - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
      > But yeah, conspiracy to cheat the election has occurred in the last few days. Thankfully, those efforts have failed spectacularly. uncharitably, this would be an extraordinary claim. Fortunately I'm not under the impression that election fraud never happens, so I can use normal standards of evidence for this. And it does appear that some chicanery is afoot, considering those members changed their vote after being pressured and possibly having their families threatened: https://twitter.com/kylenabecker/status/1329090338984583168 https://twitter.com/kylenabecker/status/1329090338984583168
newacct583 6y ago
An exploit demo? An incriminating email? Testimony from Chavez's ghost? Hell, I'd take a suspicious correlation between firmware version and vote count, even. I'm not picky. But that's the problem, isn't it? You want the standard of evidence for reporting an allegation (e.g. "the election was stolen") to place the burden of proof on the listener ("Well, you can't prove the election was NOT stolen, can you?"). And that's pretty much the definition of "fake news". It's a lie. And they tell the lie because they know you'll believe it. And that's the problem. Not "information overload".
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  > An exploit demo? Been done, pentesters have been crying about this for years. > An incriminating email? After the compromise of the Clinton email server I think they learned their lesson there. > Hell, I'd take a suspicious correlation between firmware version and vote count, even. I'm not picky. Theres been some technical arguments but they require some expertise to evaluate and probably aren't suited for a presser. > But that's the problem, isn't it? You want the standard of evidence for reporting an allegation (e.g. "the election was stolen") to place the burden of proof on the listener ("Well, you can't prove the election was NOT stolen, can you?"). its a bit ironic that you can ignore existing evidence in favor of a contrary belief but claim the other side isn't presenting evidence. > And that's pretty much the definition of "fake news". It's a lie. And they tell the lie because they know you'll believe it. And that's the problem. Not "information overload". Oh I don't believe shit. its just odd that people are so insistent that this election was all on the up and up with no evidence whereas they aren't even willing to consider that someone might cheat in an election because "that would leave evidence and I haven't seen any"
  - newacct583 6y ago
    Link to a verified pentest report on the Dominion machines they're talking about that shows this kind of thing is possible? Genuinely curious. I promise I'm not ignoring evidence, I literally haven't seen it. Edit: and in the other direction, any input on why the non-machine hand count which just completed in Georgia affirmed the results from the original count? Doesn't that pretty much eliminate the whole conspiracy theory?

galaxyLogic 6y ago

There should be a penalty for spreading lies. And further your reach, the bigger the number of followers you have, the bigger the penalty should be.

TechBro8615 6y ago
Yes, and perhaps President-Elect Biden can setup an office to handle dissemination of these lies. Perhaps he could call it The Ministry of Truth.
- galaxyLogic 6y ago
  If people want to believe lies there's no cure for them. Like many people surely want to believe that Covid-19 is a hoax, because they 1. Want it to be so 2. Want to believe the president they love so much. But reality will catch up, when a loved one is in ICU