5 ms·

And don't forget the long-term health impacts for those that survive. This will have implications for years to come.

by mmastrac 6y ago

thdrdt 6y ago
As with other types of viruses. Nerve damage is very common.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > As with other types of flu. COVID-19 is not a type of the flu, in the same way that a human is not a type of bat.
  - carlob 6y ago
    Probably a better analogy would be a bat is not a type of bird.
    - jansan 6y ago
      Fun fact: The Bible counts bats as birds. Leviticus 11: 19 “And these you shall detest among the birds;a they shall not be eaten; they are detestable: the eagle, the bearded vulture, the black vulture, the kite, the falcon of any kind, every raven of any kind, the ostrich, the nighthawk, the sea gull, the hawk of any kind, the little owl, the cormorant, the short-eared owl, the barn owl, the tawny owl, the carrion vulture, the stork, the heron of any kind, the hoopoe, and the bat."
      - yread 6y ago
        Interesting, I never knew ostrich or heron were "haram". Herons used to be a famous delicacy in mediaval Europe. https://survlivel.cultu.be/heron-stew https://survlivel.cultu.be/heron-stew And ostriches are moderately popular now
  - gabereiser 6y ago
    Unless you’re Bruce Wayne. Sorry, couldn’t resist...
CogentHedgehog 6y ago
Yes, the long-haulers and COVID-19 heart damage are particularly concerning. Also there is some evidence suggesting that a large fraction hospitalized for COVID-19 end up with mental health issues even if they did not have them before. Some of that might be down to the traumatic experience but there's some reason to think COVID-19 infections cause neurological impacts.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  IMO, there's reason to think that COVID-19 has negative mental health effects even on people who never get the disease.
  - gabereiser 6y ago
    For sure, this needs study too. There have been studies of those who were given treatment though and it shows a correlation. We don’t know, for sure, that COVID-19 is the direct cause of mental issues or a side effect but it’s been recorded in a sample. I think a study of a general population sample for mental health issues with or without a prior COVID-19 diagnosis would show how varying the COVID-19 patients experiences are vs how everyone else is fairing. I’m not a scientist or a therapist so I don’t know the exact approach to use to do the comparison but I suspect it could be done.
  - CogentHedgehog 6y ago
    That's definitely true too -- the rates of mental illness are something like doubled in the base population. But the frequency for people who have been sick is much higher than the general population, even accounting for the spike in overall mental illness.
anoncake 6y ago
There is no evidence that these kinds of impacts are even remotely common.
- pmiller2 6y ago
  Are you sure? From https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/10.1001/jamacardio.2020.3557 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/... : > In this study of a cohort of German patients recently recovered from COVID-19 infection, CMR revealed cardiac involvement in 78 patients (78%) and ongoing myocardial inflammation in 60 patients (60%), independent of preexisting conditions, severity and overall course of the acute illness, and time from the original diagnosis. These findings indicate the need for ongoing investigation of the long-term cardiovascular consequences of COVID-19. Note that this study includes a group of COVID survivors who have recently recovered, and 2 control groups: healthy, age-matched participants, and a group of risk-factor matched control patients. It is published in JAMA Cardiology. Obviously, this study doesn't say anything about truly long-term consequences of COVID, but that, IMO, is more because we haven't had time to reach "long-term" status yet. I would give it at least another 6 months to a year before making up my mind about the incidence of long-term consequences.
  - anoncake 6y ago
    > Obviously, this study doesn't say anything about truly long-term consequences of COVID Exactly. And it's insane to just assume there is long-term damage with no evidence whatsoever. Also, it would likely be possible to say something about actual long-term damage if it existed by monitoring patients' recovery and extrapolating.
    - pmiller2 6y ago
      How about this, then. From https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-hidden-long-term-cognitive-effects-of-covid-2020100821133 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-hidden-long-term-cog... : > There is one inevitable conclusion from these studies: COVID infection frequently leads to brain damage — particularly in those over 70. While sometimes the brain damage is obvious and leads to major cognitive impairment, more frequently the damage is mild, leading to difficulties with sustained attention. > Although many people who have recovered from COVID can resume their daily lives without difficulty — even if they have some deficits in attention — there are a number of people who may experience difficulty now or later. One recently published paper from a group of German and American doctors concluded that the combination of direct effects of the virus, systemic inflammation, strokes, and damage to bodily organs (like lungs and liver) could even make COVID survivors at high risk for Alzheimer’s disease in the future. Individuals whose professions involve medical care, legal advice, financial planning, or leadership — including political leaders — may need to be carefully evaluated with formal neuropsychological testing, including measures of sustained attention, to assure that their cognition has not been compromised. I think brain damage counts as "long-term damage," don't you?

And don't forget the long-term health impacts for those that survive. This will have implications for years to come.

thdrdt 6y ago

As with other types of viruses. Nerve damage is very common.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> As with other types of flu. COVID-19 is not a type of the flu, in the same way that a human is not a type of bat.
- carlob 6y ago
  Probably a better analogy would be a bat is not a type of bird.
  - jansan 6y ago
    Fun fact: The Bible counts bats as birds. Leviticus 11: 19 “And these you shall detest among the birds;a they shall not be eaten; they are detestable: the eagle, the bearded vulture, the black vulture, the kite, the falcon of any kind, every raven of any kind, the ostrich, the nighthawk, the sea gull, the hawk of any kind, the little owl, the cormorant, the short-eared owl, the barn owl, the tawny owl, the carrion vulture, the stork, the heron of any kind, the hoopoe, and the bat."
    - yread 6y ago
      Interesting, I never knew ostrich or heron were "haram". Herons used to be a famous delicacy in mediaval Europe. https://survlivel.cultu.be/heron-stew https://survlivel.cultu.be/heron-stew And ostriches are moderately popular now
- gabereiser 6y ago
  Unless you’re Bruce Wayne. Sorry, couldn’t resist...

CogentHedgehog 6y ago

Yes, the long-haulers and COVID-19 heart damage are particularly concerning. Also there is some evidence suggesting that a large fraction hospitalized for COVID-19 end up with mental health issues even if they did not have them before. Some of that might be down to the traumatic experience but there's some reason to think COVID-19 infections cause neurological impacts.

sokoloff 6y ago
IMO, there's reason to think that COVID-19 has negative mental health effects even on people who never get the disease.
- gabereiser 6y ago
  For sure, this needs study too. There have been studies of those who were given treatment though and it shows a correlation. We don’t know, for sure, that COVID-19 is the direct cause of mental issues or a side effect but it’s been recorded in a sample. I think a study of a general population sample for mental health issues with or without a prior COVID-19 diagnosis would show how varying the COVID-19 patients experiences are vs how everyone else is fairing. I’m not a scientist or a therapist so I don’t know the exact approach to use to do the comparison but I suspect it could be done.
- CogentHedgehog 6y ago
  That's definitely true too -- the rates of mental illness are something like doubled in the base population. But the frequency for people who have been sick is much higher than the general population, even accounting for the spike in overall mental illness.

anoncake 6y ago

There is no evidence that these kinds of impacts are even remotely common.

pmiller2 6y ago
Are you sure? From https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/10.1001/jamacardio.2020.3557 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/... : > In this study of a cohort of German patients recently recovered from COVID-19 infection, CMR revealed cardiac involvement in 78 patients (78%) and ongoing myocardial inflammation in 60 patients (60%), independent of preexisting conditions, severity and overall course of the acute illness, and time from the original diagnosis. These findings indicate the need for ongoing investigation of the long-term cardiovascular consequences of COVID-19. Note that this study includes a group of COVID survivors who have recently recovered, and 2 control groups: healthy, age-matched participants, and a group of risk-factor matched control patients. It is published in JAMA Cardiology. Obviously, this study doesn't say anything about truly long-term consequences of COVID, but that, IMO, is more because we haven't had time to reach "long-term" status yet. I would give it at least another 6 months to a year before making up my mind about the incidence of long-term consequences.
- anoncake 6y ago
  > Obviously, this study doesn't say anything about truly long-term consequences of COVID Exactly. And it's insane to just assume there is long-term damage with no evidence whatsoever. Also, it would likely be possible to say something about actual long-term damage if it existed by monitoring patients' recovery and extrapolating.
  - pmiller2 6y ago
    How about this, then. From https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-hidden-long-term-cognitive-effects-of-covid-2020100821133 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-hidden-long-term-cog... : > There is one inevitable conclusion from these studies: COVID infection frequently leads to brain damage — particularly in those over 70. While sometimes the brain damage is obvious and leads to major cognitive impairment, more frequently the damage is mild, leading to difficulties with sustained attention. > Although many people who have recovered from COVID can resume their daily lives without difficulty — even if they have some deficits in attention — there are a number of people who may experience difficulty now or later. One recently published paper from a group of German and American doctors concluded that the combination of direct effects of the virus, systemic inflammation, strokes, and damage to bodily organs (like lungs and liver) could even make COVID survivors at high risk for Alzheimer’s disease in the future. Individuals whose professions involve medical care, legal advice, financial planning, or leadership — including political leaders — may need to be carefully evaluated with formal neuropsychological testing, including measures of sustained attention, to assure that their cognition has not been compromised. I think brain damage counts as "long-term damage," don't you?