7 ms·

Copy-pasted the comment I left at another forum: The the M1 is Zen3 5600X performance in an ultra-portable form factor. Whether that's revolutionary or not par

by em500 6y ago

Copy-pasted the comment I left at another forum: The the M1 is Zen3 5600X performance in an ultra-portable form factor. Whether that's revolutionary or not particularly noteworthy depends on the individual use case. If you're don't care that much about power/heat/fan-noise, it's neat but not (yet) world shattering. Bit if you live your life on a small laptop, it may well be. According to rumors, we'll see Apple's 8 Firestorm + 4 Icestorm CPU within a quarter or two in the 16-inch MacBook (current M1 is 4 Firestorm + 4 Icestorm, where Firestorm is the high-performance core). That will perform somewhere between a 5800X and 5900X (or some recent 16-core Xeon that nobody remembers the name/number of). Again, revolutionary or meh depends on use case. Linux native is not in the cards but it won't matter, it will work fine virtualized with hardly any performance penalty (for ARM64 linux). If for some reason you insist on native linux, it's time to recognize that Apple hardware is not for you. Personally I run my server workload on servers far away and let other people deal with infra (particularly, power, networking and physical security). But it's probably great for heavy media creators on the go.

geokon 6y ago
"Linux native is not in the cards" Sorry I'm not in the loop.. but why is that? Does the hardware somehow preclude it?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- em500 6y ago
  The locked bootloader will only run Apple signed operating systems (a la Chromebook, without the Chromebook Developer mode escape hatch). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23640746 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23640746
  - coldtea 6y ago
    Actually that's not the case. This post is misinformed (and 4 months old). There was a breakdown from an official Apple page how to boot alternative systems on an M1.
    - unix_fan 6y ago
      https://twitter.com/never_released/status/1327398102983176192 https://twitter.com/never_released/status/132739810298317619...
    - unicornporn 6y ago
      > There was a breakdown from an official Apple page how to boot alternative systems on an M1. Link please.
      - my123 6y ago
        That's the kmutil manpage section about it: https://twitter.com/comex/status/1328800304318603265?s=20 https://twitter.com/comex/status/1328800304318603265?s=20 That work doesn't seem to be complete yet however in the latest beta.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - coldtea 6y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25145119 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25145119 Choose one of the following security options: Full Security: Ensures that only your current OS, or signed operating system software currently trusted by Apple, can run. This mode requires a network connection at software installation time. Reduced Security: Allows any version of signed operating system software ever trusted by Apple to run. Permissive Security: Does not enforce any requirements on the bootable operating system. Note: The Permissive Security option appears only when System Integrity Protection (SIP) is disabled. To disable SIP, start up your Mac in macOS Recovery, open Terminal, then run the command csrutil disable.
  - easton 6y ago
    You can still disable secure boot just fine, just run “csrutil disable” from recovery and the option magically appears. https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/macos-recovery-a-mac-apple-silicon-mchl82829c17/11.0/mac/11.0#mchl9b13cbdc https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/macos-recovery-a-ma...
    - kzrdude 6y ago
      Is it durable or can it be forgotten as a setting? I would be looking at plain Linux boot and erasing Mac os, so any dependency on Mac tools would be nonideal.
      - my123 6y ago
        At this point, it's very much preferable to keep macOS. The bringup for the drivers for that SoC will take a while. It won't all be available instantly. Note on those Macs that the security settings are boot volume specific, so that you can have a volume with all security off for fun, and still have a completely secure macOS install selectable via dual-boot.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
siraben 6y ago
> Linux native is not in the cards but it won't matter, it will work fine virtualized with hardly any performance penalty. If for some reason you insist on native linux, it's time to recognize that Apple hardware is not for you. How would one run a graphical Linux distro virtualized and by which software?
- coldtea 6y ago
  Parallels and VMWare Fusion would run it. Virtualbox as well. We can already do this on Intel Macs, Windows PCs, etc. Graphics are not a problem. Heck, we could since forever also run graphical macOS and Windows on virtualization apps...
  - siraben 6y ago
    Is it enabled in VirtualBox by default?
    - coldtea 6y ago
      If you mean running GUIS, in the Intel version yes. The ARM/Apple Silicon version not sure if it's ready, might need work to even run cli.
      - skissane 6y ago
        Is there even ever going to be an ARM / Apple Silicon version? It would be a huge amount of work to add ARM support to VirtualBox. I would be surprised if Oracle were interested in making that investment.
        coldtea 6y ago
        That's up to Oracle. If MS also starts pushing Windows for ARM (as they seem intenting to do), I think they might make an VirtualBox offering for ARM. In any case, we have Fusion and Parallels, and Fusion is now free for personal use iirc.
superkuh 6y ago
>If for some reason you insist on native linux, it's time to recognize that Apple hardware is not for you. And so, all the people that would provide support for their family and friends due to using the same hardware split paths. And now those Apple users have to go to Apple for support. A double win for the corporation.
- coldtea 6y ago
  >all the people that would provide support for their family and friends due to using the same hardware split paths All 10 of them? The subset of people that (a) had Apple laptops, (b) run Linux on them, (c) provided support for family, is probably irrelevant... >And now those Apple users have to go to Apple for support. A double win for the corporation. Yes, what a big lucrative market: relatives of people who run Linux on their Macs that dependent on them for support /s
  - superkuh 6y ago
    >The subset of people that (a) had Apple laptops, (b) run Linux on them, ... Yes, what a big lucrative market: relatives of people who run Linux on their Macs t... Technical people moving away from using Apple's new properietary hardware that literally can't boot any OS but Mac OS will mean they can't help their friends and family as easily due to lack of familiarity.
    - coldtea 6y ago
      >Technical people moving away from using Apple's new properietary hardware Many technical people seem jumping into Apple's new hardware, and reviews are all raving for M1. Don't confuse FOSS people / ideologues with "most technical people". The technical people that are big in numbers and give support need to be merely computer savvy people, not hardcore devs or people who'd rather run Linux. >that literally can't boot any OS but Mac OS That's wrong. It can boot any OS: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25145119 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25145119
coldtea 6y ago
>The the M1 is a Zen3 5600X in an ultra-portable form factor. Well, also without x86 baggage, and with tons of SOC co-preccessors added, and a unified memory.
- chungus_khan 6y ago
  Unified memory is pretty normal on non-desktop systems and has been for a while.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    Not sure which those "non-desktop" systems are. If you mean "smartphones and tablets", ok. But this is a laptop, not a mobile phone, and it's new development there. If you mean "laptops" then, no, they didn't have unified memory, much less have it be "pretty normal".
    - fulafel 6y ago
      Laptops with iGPUs are pretty normal, no? (And common on desktops too)
      - masklinn 6y ago
        iGPU doesn't mean unified memory.
        chungus_khan 6y ago
        For modern ones it does.
        jakeva 6y ago
        Can you give an example outside the M1 Macbooks?
        6y ago
sgt101 6y ago
I don't get this (sorry ignorant!) - isn't the Zen3 an AMD thing? What has this got to do with ARM?
- t3rabytes 6y ago
  Just a performance comparison.
- em500 6y ago
  Yes, Zen3 is AMD's just released latest architecture, and currently the highest performing x86 implementation. The 5600X is the the mainstream 65W 6-core desktop Zen3 CPU. It has nothing to do with ARM or Apple. I left the comparison as a reference point for people who follow desktop PC performance and may not be as well aware of Apple's.
  - walkingolof 6y ago
    It’s also a 7nm design that has to deal with things like PCI busses, external memory on a narrower bus etc. so actually it do very well compared to the m1. I’m interested to see how Apple can make this scale, can you get a Mx laptop with 64 Gb? Or will that has to be soc external memory for the process to scale?
    - gsnedders 6y ago
      > I’m interested to see how Apple can make this scale, can you get a Mx laptop with 64 Gb? Or will that has to be soc external memory for the process to scale? Memory is already external to the SoC on the M1; it's on the same package but it's not a single chip.
    - my123 6y ago
      Apple chips have PCIe since forever too, in fact Wi-Fi + BT is plugged over PCIe on them. Thunderbolt with two 40Gb/sec links isn't tiny either. 64GB will come for future laptops. And Apple can scale with a single package beyond 64GB too, very high performance solutions included. See the A100 80GB from NVIDIA with 2TB/sec of memory bandwidth, with RAM as part of the package, just not in the same die.
unix_fan 6y ago
Native linux could actually be a thing… https://www.reddit.com/r/jailbreak/comments/jtrt2l/upcoming_pongoos_from_the_checkra1n_jailbreak/ https://www.reddit.com/r/jailbreak/comments/jtrt2l/upcoming_...
- alex_duf 6y ago
  Does that mean you have to jailbreak your own machine to install linux or is it just a coincidence and it's just the same team?
  - unix_fan 6y ago
    No. https://keith.github.io/xcode-man-pages/bputil.1.html https://keith.github.io/xcode-man-pages/bputil.1.html This changes the security mode to Permissive Security. Permissive Security uses the same "global" digital signature for macOS as the above Reduced Security option, in order to allow running software which is not the latest version. Thus anything other than the latest software therefore may have security vulnerabilities. At a high level, Permissive Security allows configuration options to be set to not require all software to be digitally signed. This can allow users who are not part of the Apple Developer program to still be able to introduce their own software into their system. Additionally, especially dangerous security downgrades may be restricted to Permissive Security, and only available via CLI tools for power users rather than GUIs. Passing this option will explicitly recreate the LocalPolicy from scratch, (i.e. it does not preserve any existing security policy options) and only the options specified via this tool will exist in the output local policy. It sounds like Apple left the boot loader unlocked on these systems, just not by default.
    - alex_duf 6y ago
      Amazing, thanks for taking the time to thoroughly answer my question!
forrestthewoods 6y ago
> the M1 is Zen3 5600X performance in an ultra-portable form factor. It’s astonishing. I just hope they someday put in a good GPU. Something comparable to an Nvidia 3060 would be great. I’d love to see Apple go HAM with their ARM chips in an iMac Pro or some such. Give me 12 firestorm cores and bump the GPU cores from 8 to 64.
- kllrnohj 6y ago
  > I just hope they someday put in a good GPU. Something comparable to an Nvidia 3060 would be great. The GPU in the M1 is perfectly good for the power targets it's trying to hit. Either fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your perspective, Apple is unlikely to be able to do with the GPU what they did with the CPU. That is, there's no legacy in either Nvidia nor AMD's GPUs that Apple can cut out to get wins. And similarly, neither Nvidia nor AMD slowed down their progress or is suffering from fab issues like Intel did & is on the CPU side of things. I don't doubt Apple can hit an RTX 3060 level of performance, but they'll get there with roughly similar to RTX 3060 level of power draw. Which means it ain't fitting in a MacBook Air or MBP 13", either. And judging by the existing MBP 16" cooling solution, not really going to go well in that chassis.
  - forrestthewoods 6y ago
    I’m a game developer. I want macOS to not suck for games. Apple and Nvidia have never gotten along for a variety of reasons. Apple will probably continue to offer shitty GPUs in their MacBooks. That’s fine and maybe even a smart business choice. But it means mac continues to suck for games. Which is unfortunate imho. I think we can all agree it would be very interesting to see how much GPU power they can stuff in an iMac Pro and desktop class Mac Pro. If it doesn’t make business sense then so be it. Realistically I’m hoping in 5 years that Nvidia releases a high-end integrated SoC. Tegra on Switch is fine. Keep it going.
    - inDigiNeous 6y ago
      Well Apple has never really tried to target the Mac as a gaming platform, except maybe back in the G4/G5 days they had some effort, marketing Doom 3 running on the new G4. Can't remember any other times they have really talked about gaming performance. Gaming is mostly DirectX anyway or consoles with their custom APIs.
Veedrac 6y ago
> in the 16-inch MacBook And the 13". We'll probably have something even better for the 16" too.

by em500 6y ago

geokon 6y ago

"Linux native is not in the cards" Sorry I'm not in the loop.. but why is that? Does the hardware somehow preclude it?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
em500 6y ago
The locked bootloader will only run Apple signed operating systems (a la Chromebook, without the Chromebook Developer mode escape hatch). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23640746 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23640746
- coldtea 6y ago
  Actually that's not the case. This post is misinformed (and 4 months old). There was a breakdown from an official Apple page how to boot alternative systems on an M1.
  - unix_fan 6y ago
    https://twitter.com/never_released/status/1327398102983176192 https://twitter.com/never_released/status/132739810298317619...
  - unicornporn 6y ago
    > There was a breakdown from an official Apple page how to boot alternative systems on an M1. Link please.
    - my123 6y ago
      That's the kmutil manpage section about it: https://twitter.com/comex/status/1328800304318603265?s=20 https://twitter.com/comex/status/1328800304318603265?s=20 That work doesn't seem to be complete yet however in the latest beta.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - coldtea 6y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25145119 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25145119 Choose one of the following security options: Full Security: Ensures that only your current OS, or signed operating system software currently trusted by Apple, can run. This mode requires a network connection at software installation time. Reduced Security: Allows any version of signed operating system software ever trusted by Apple to run. Permissive Security: Does not enforce any requirements on the bootable operating system. Note: The Permissive Security option appears only when System Integrity Protection (SIP) is disabled. To disable SIP, start up your Mac in macOS Recovery, open Terminal, then run the command csrutil disable.
- easton 6y ago
  You can still disable secure boot just fine, just run “csrutil disable” from recovery and the option magically appears. https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/macos-recovery-a-mac-apple-silicon-mchl82829c17/11.0/mac/11.0#mchl9b13cbdc https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/macos-recovery-a-ma...
  - kzrdude 6y ago
    Is it durable or can it be forgotten as a setting? I would be looking at plain Linux boot and erasing Mac os, so any dependency on Mac tools would be nonideal.
    - my123 6y ago
      At this point, it's very much preferable to keep macOS. The bringup for the drivers for that SoC will take a while. It won't all be available instantly. Note on those Macs that the security settings are boot volume specific, so that you can have a volume with all security off for fun, and still have a completely secure macOS install selectable via dual-boot.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

siraben 6y ago

> Linux native is not in the cards but it won't matter, it will work fine virtualized with hardly any performance penalty. If for some reason you insist on native linux, it's time to recognize that Apple hardware is not for you. How would one run a graphical Linux distro virtualized and by which software?

coldtea 6y ago
Parallels and VMWare Fusion would run it. Virtualbox as well. We can already do this on Intel Macs, Windows PCs, etc. Graphics are not a problem. Heck, we could since forever also run graphical macOS and Windows on virtualization apps...
- siraben 6y ago
  Is it enabled in VirtualBox by default?
  - coldtea 6y ago
    If you mean running GUIS, in the Intel version yes. The ARM/Apple Silicon version not sure if it's ready, might need work to even run cli.
    - skissane 6y ago
      Is there even ever going to be an ARM / Apple Silicon version? It would be a huge amount of work to add ARM support to VirtualBox. I would be surprised if Oracle were interested in making that investment.
      - coldtea 6y ago
        That's up to Oracle. If MS also starts pushing Windows for ARM (as they seem intenting to do), I think they might make an VirtualBox offering for ARM. In any case, we have Fusion and Parallels, and Fusion is now free for personal use iirc.

superkuh 6y ago

>If for some reason you insist on native linux, it's time to recognize that Apple hardware is not for you. And so, all the people that would provide support for their family and friends due to using the same hardware split paths. And now those Apple users have to go to Apple for support. A double win for the corporation.

coldtea 6y ago
>all the people that would provide support for their family and friends due to using the same hardware split paths All 10 of them? The subset of people that (a) had Apple laptops, (b) run Linux on them, (c) provided support for family, is probably irrelevant... >And now those Apple users have to go to Apple for support. A double win for the corporation. Yes, what a big lucrative market: relatives of people who run Linux on their Macs that dependent on them for support /s
- superkuh 6y ago
  >The subset of people that (a) had Apple laptops, (b) run Linux on them, ... Yes, what a big lucrative market: relatives of people who run Linux on their Macs t... Technical people moving away from using Apple's new properietary hardware that literally can't boot any OS but Mac OS will mean they can't help their friends and family as easily due to lack of familiarity.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >Technical people moving away from using Apple's new properietary hardware Many technical people seem jumping into Apple's new hardware, and reviews are all raving for M1. Don't confuse FOSS people / ideologues with "most technical people". The technical people that are big in numbers and give support need to be merely computer savvy people, not hardcore devs or people who'd rather run Linux. >that literally can't boot any OS but Mac OS That's wrong. It can boot any OS: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25145119 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25145119

coldtea 6y ago

>The the M1 is a Zen3 5600X in an ultra-portable form factor. Well, also without x86 baggage, and with tons of SOC co-preccessors added, and a unified memory.

chungus_khan 6y ago
Unified memory is pretty normal on non-desktop systems and has been for a while.
- coldtea 6y ago
  Not sure which those "non-desktop" systems are. If you mean "smartphones and tablets", ok. But this is a laptop, not a mobile phone, and it's new development there. If you mean "laptops" then, no, they didn't have unified memory, much less have it be "pretty normal".
  - fulafel 6y ago
    Laptops with iGPUs are pretty normal, no? (And common on desktops too)
    - masklinn 6y ago
      iGPU doesn't mean unified memory.
      - chungus_khan 6y ago
        For modern ones it does.
        jakeva 6y ago
        Can you give an example outside the M1 Macbooks?
        6y ago

sgt101 6y ago

I don't get this (sorry ignorant!) - isn't the Zen3 an AMD thing? What has this got to do with ARM?

t3rabytes 6y ago
Just a performance comparison.
em500 6y ago
Yes, Zen3 is AMD's just released latest architecture, and currently the highest performing x86 implementation. The 5600X is the the mainstream 65W 6-core desktop Zen3 CPU. It has nothing to do with ARM or Apple. I left the comparison as a reference point for people who follow desktop PC performance and may not be as well aware of Apple's.
- walkingolof 6y ago
  It’s also a 7nm design that has to deal with things like PCI busses, external memory on a narrower bus etc. so actually it do very well compared to the m1. I’m interested to see how Apple can make this scale, can you get a Mx laptop with 64 Gb? Or will that has to be soc external memory for the process to scale?
  - gsnedders 6y ago
    > I’m interested to see how Apple can make this scale, can you get a Mx laptop with 64 Gb? Or will that has to be soc external memory for the process to scale? Memory is already external to the SoC on the M1; it's on the same package but it's not a single chip.
  - my123 6y ago
    Apple chips have PCIe since forever too, in fact Wi-Fi + BT is plugged over PCIe on them. Thunderbolt with two 40Gb/sec links isn't tiny either. 64GB will come for future laptops. And Apple can scale with a single package beyond 64GB too, very high performance solutions included. See the A100 80GB from NVIDIA with 2TB/sec of memory bandwidth, with RAM as part of the package, just not in the same die.

unix_fan 6y ago

Native linux could actually be a thing… https://www.reddit.com/r/jailbreak/comments/jtrt2l/upcoming_pongoos_from_the_checkra1n_jailbreak/ https://www.reddit.com/r/jailbreak/comments/jtrt2l/upcoming_...

alex_duf 6y ago
Does that mean you have to jailbreak your own machine to install linux or is it just a coincidence and it's just the same team?
- unix_fan 6y ago
  No. https://keith.github.io/xcode-man-pages/bputil.1.html https://keith.github.io/xcode-man-pages/bputil.1.html This changes the security mode to Permissive Security. Permissive Security uses the same "global" digital signature for macOS as the above Reduced Security option, in order to allow running software which is not the latest version. Thus anything other than the latest software therefore may have security vulnerabilities. At a high level, Permissive Security allows configuration options to be set to not require all software to be digitally signed. This can allow users who are not part of the Apple Developer program to still be able to introduce their own software into their system. Additionally, especially dangerous security downgrades may be restricted to Permissive Security, and only available via CLI tools for power users rather than GUIs. Passing this option will explicitly recreate the LocalPolicy from scratch, (i.e. it does not preserve any existing security policy options) and only the options specified via this tool will exist in the output local policy. It sounds like Apple left the boot loader unlocked on these systems, just not by default.
  - alex_duf 6y ago
    Amazing, thanks for taking the time to thoroughly answer my question!

forrestthewoods 6y ago

> the M1 is Zen3 5600X performance in an ultra-portable form factor. It’s astonishing. I just hope they someday put in a good GPU. Something comparable to an Nvidia 3060 would be great. I’d love to see Apple go HAM with their ARM chips in an iMac Pro or some such. Give me 12 firestorm cores and bump the GPU cores from 8 to 64.

kllrnohj 6y ago
> I just hope they someday put in a good GPU. Something comparable to an Nvidia 3060 would be great. The GPU in the M1 is perfectly good for the power targets it's trying to hit. Either fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your perspective, Apple is unlikely to be able to do with the GPU what they did with the CPU. That is, there's no legacy in either Nvidia nor AMD's GPUs that Apple can cut out to get wins. And similarly, neither Nvidia nor AMD slowed down their progress or is suffering from fab issues like Intel did & is on the CPU side of things. I don't doubt Apple can hit an RTX 3060 level of performance, but they'll get there with roughly similar to RTX 3060 level of power draw. Which means it ain't fitting in a MacBook Air or MBP 13", either. And judging by the existing MBP 16" cooling solution, not really going to go well in that chassis.
- forrestthewoods 6y ago
  I’m a game developer. I want macOS to not suck for games. Apple and Nvidia have never gotten along for a variety of reasons. Apple will probably continue to offer shitty GPUs in their MacBooks. That’s fine and maybe even a smart business choice. But it means mac continues to suck for games. Which is unfortunate imho. I think we can all agree it would be very interesting to see how much GPU power they can stuff in an iMac Pro and desktop class Mac Pro. If it doesn’t make business sense then so be it. Realistically I’m hoping in 5 years that Nvidia releases a high-end integrated SoC. Tegra on Switch is fine. Keep it going.
  - inDigiNeous 6y ago
    Well Apple has never really tried to target the Mac as a gaming platform, except maybe back in the G4/G5 days they had some effort, marketing Doom 3 running on the new G4. Can't remember any other times they have really talked about gaming performance. Gaming is mostly DirectX anyway or consoles with their custom APIs.

Veedrac 6y ago

> in the 16-inch MacBook And the 13". We'll probably have something even better for the 16" too.