4 ms·

Agreed 100%, I have a troubled kid in school right now, who is off the charts smart but the only thing he will apply himself to is Advanced Math, Auto Shop and

by kls 6y ago

Agreed 100%, I have a troubled kid in school right now, who is off the charts smart but the only thing he will apply himself to is Advanced Math, Auto Shop and his Culinary program. If it's not hands on or mechanical he just has no interest in rote memorization. School needs to fundamentally change especially for adolescent males, it just stacks the decks against the high functioning learn by doing types. I often wonder how many great minds we have lost to being store clerk (no looking down on them, its just a waste of a mind if you have it)

learnstats2 6y ago
I think student-led education is a useful model: where students have a say in what they find important and in their own education. (This applies for all children, not only for adolescent boys) The curriculum has too much influence from adults whose goals (sometimes openly stated!) are for a compliant labour force with a reduced training cost on particular work-focussed skills. That's at the expense of (for example:) relationship and mental health education, creative arts, critical thinking skills, financial education, talent development, practical entrepreneurship, and the idea that children can have and create value in their own right. As such, this is regularly a complete mismatch to what's going to be useful to kids when and as they grow up, and kids often know it: even while they don't have the political power to make change.
throwaway316943 6y ago
It boggles my mind how broken the model of rote memorization to pass written tests is. School should teach you the fundamentals of how to acquire knowledge and then get out of your way. Reading, writing, speaking, logic, geometry, mathematics, and programming along with a whirlwind tour of all the good and bad ideas throughout history then pack it up. Instead we have a public babysitting service that pretends to add value when it’s probably no better than dropping your kid off at a library for the day (whether they choose to stay and read or not).
- Siira 6y ago
  I suspect teachers are the bottleneck. They hardly have any useful skills (except keeping children in line), so they can only teach memorization which is easy to teach/grade.
  - jonathanwallace 6y ago
    Your suspicion is incorrect. Twenty years ago, my wife came out of graduate school where they learned about differentiated instruction and inquiry based instruction. The education field is well aware of how to teach better. However, there are obstacles to the implementation. 1. Resources. Inquiry based education (where the children drive the study) requires a different student to teacher ratio than 30:1. 2. Inertia. You need a systemic change otherwise those fresh new teachers with their fancy up to date pedagogy run into #1 and principals, teachers, and students who are not ready for it. 3. Parents. Parents are also not ready for it. You have parents who want to be certain their child is prepared and ranked.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > It boggles my mind how broken the model of rote memorization to pass written tests is. School should teach you the fundamentals of how to acquire knowledge and then get out of your way. That's utopian and a rather unrealistic, incomplete view. Education is also about imparting a fundamental shared body of knowledge as well, and it also has to deal with a very wide diversity of ability and motivation. Your proposal is pretty lacking in specifics, but what you have in mind seems to be something that's optimized to work very well with an idealized student, which would only be a small fraction of all students, and would likely do worse on average when considering all students. > Reading, writing, speaking, logic, geometry, mathematics, and programming along with a whirlwind tour of all the good and bad ideas throughout history then pack it up. That's a weird list. You include programming but not civics?
  - throwaway316943 6y ago
    It’s not particularly utopian, I’m proposing reducing the number of subjects and the duration of public education which should allow for a larger share of the current educational resources to be spent on each student. This is to enable those resources to be spent preparing the student to solve problems themselves. I limited the list to a minimum of topics necessary to consume, produce, synthesize and communicate ideas and information. Programming is in there because I consider it as necessary as literacy and numeracy since it allows you to reify some of your cognition in the same way that writing notes or performing a calculation does. Civics doesn’t belong in that list because it’s not a fundamental skill, it’s not even taught in many countries. A student who has been taught to read comprehensively, communicate clearly and think critically should have no trouble acquiring that knowledge.
    - ardy42 6y ago
      > It’s not particularly utopian....A student who has been taught to read comprehensively, communicate clearly and think critically should have no trouble acquiring that knowledge. That sounds pretty utopian. Firstly, I don't think you can reasonably assume any mass educational program will reliably produce students like that, so any program that assumes that will likely fail a large proportion of its students in pretty significant ways. Secondly, your exclusive focus what you define to be "fundamental skills" and exclusion of anything that you deem "not fundamental" seems more of a personal bias than a well-founded educational program. There certainly exist bright and highly-motivated students (perhaps you were one of them) who would build on that foundation and complete their education like you assume they would, but I'd judge they're a minority. Thirdly, there's a social aspect to education that your focus on skills misses. Things like civics need to be part of the curriculum, because even if a student would have no trouble learning the subject independently, there's no guarantee they would actually choose to do so. However, the American system of government (unlike some other systems) can't function without widespread civic knowledge and engagement.
Melting_Harps 6y ago
> Agreed 100%, I have a troubled kid in school right now, who is off the charts smart but the only thing he will apply himself to is Advanced Math, Auto Shop and his Culinary program. If it's not hands on or mechanical he just has no interest in rote memorization. School needs to fundamentally change especially for adolescent males, it just stacks the decks against the high functioning learn by doing types. I often wonder how many great minds we have lost to being store clerk (no looking down on them, its just a waste of a mind if you have it) Huh... this sounds exactly like me growing up, except I took to Biology and did rather poor in Math until I taught myself Bio-centric Calculus in University and realized I actually did understand the concepts and could apply them to my desired ends. I'd start by considering that his formal education should only account for 20% of his actual learning, and use that as a standard which allows him t pursuit other avenues (independent research and projects) outside of his schooling. Which can include College or University level courses, I personally started skipping HS altogether except for exam dates and attending University level Philosphy and Biology courses by Junior year. This wasn't without controversy despite having a cumulative 3.5 GPA. One of the things I always told myself was that I'd buy my child, boy or girl, a non-running car of their choice as an extra circular activity by age 12 in order to have them explore their curiosity, hone their research skills, learn how to apply knowledge to an actual tangible medium and interact with other people who also identify with the same car culture and give them a 'tribe' of sorts which for males is very critical, especially at that age. Furthermore, and this is difficult due to COVID to do in person, but I would encourage you both to watch conferences that are related to those fields and maybe take some entry and then advance classes together on Coursera or Udemy, Khan Academy and all the ED-tech platforms. CU Boulder has a really cool entry level Biology series right now, I attended one of the instructors courses on campus for a few weeks and as person who did their under grad in Bio and then worked in a diagnostics labs for several years I wish I had that kind of instructor in my early formative years--I've only had 2 good teachers, both chemists, my whole Life in ~18 years of formal education. In fact many of us who went through the Academia based Biology track and then turned Biohackers often wished we hadn't done it all, as it stunted our initial curiosity and sense of wonder that is essential in making luminaries and vast advancements in Science in exchange for complying to the rote learning method that yields 'good grades.' Anyhow, I'm glad that you have made this observation in your child's life, I struggled with it a lot with my parents, but ultimately I can tell you that despite the unorthodox methods and leaving my Industry, I achieved a great deal in all of the other Industries I focused on (Biology/Automotive/Culinary-Agriculture and too a smaller degree Fintech) and was able to accomplish a lot from the wide skill-set I had developed through my years of hands-on learning. My parents are very proud of my achievements and are probably more interested in the awards I've gained as a 'polymath' in those fields than I am at this point. My only wish being that I had something more than online friends on Newsgroups and Forums (some who I'd meet in real Life) for support to help guide me through the journey, so I hope you take a hands on approach in your son's life.
krebs_liebhaber 6y ago
> School needs to fundamentally change especially for adolescent males, it just stacks the decks against the high functioning learn by doing types. The point of school is to teach discipline and grit - the subjects in and of themselves are merely incidental. Do you really think that these "great minds" - the kids who can't sit through a lecture and half-ass everything off of natural talent alone - would be doing great things if it weren't for the evil school system getting in the way? "Smart but lazy" is probably the most insufferable combination of character traits. Nothing else even comes close. (See also: "The Bipolar Lisp Programmer" - http://www.marktarver.com/bipolar.html http://www.marktarver.com/bipolar.html)
- bergstromm466 6y ago
  > The point of school is to teach discipline and grit Have you heard of neoliberal magical voluntarism?
- kls 6y ago
  The problem is it is not "smart but lazy" it is a value proposition and some kids don't see the value, even if they are smart enough. The reality is many smart kids today know that even higher education, unless specifically focused is a waste of resources. The smart ones generally leave the uni for a business venture before they even complete postsecondary. Further grade inflation and the continuing of lowering standards means that the ones that know how to game the system, can skate in general ed, pull out 2, 4.0 GPA years at community, where they get some choice in their direction, save money and then usually gain admittance into a decent school. As I said, it's not lazy it's a value proposition and in many ways the ones that don't totally wash out, don't see the value in applying their faculties to the endeavor of educating themselves the way the State proscribes. Boot camp is for discipline and grit, compulsory education is well compulsory and you don't get a choice in how you learn, not everyone learns the same, and not everyone is lazy for seeing the emperor has no clothes. Many successful tech Founders/CEO's would meet your definition of "Smart but Lazy" but some smart people do just wash out. Maybe it's just like burnout that is so prevalent in the tech industry, yet they hit it early. For example my youngest son can look at a fairly complex algebraic equation, and within a few seconds he can tell you the answer by calculating it in his head. It's some nearly savant level stuff, one time I asked him how does he do that and he said the equations are a painters pallet, each part has a color, he takes the color and paints a picture in his mind and that picture is the answer. I think you can imagine sitting him down to force him to learn algebra the way most of us do it, is painful to say the least. Not only can he arrive at the answer faster than us, he has to actively suppress the way he learns to learn a process he will never use in reality. He does not see the point, he already has the answer. He is not being lazy, his mind just uses the creative half to solve logic, its pretty messed up, but it works for him, so you can imagine his frustration when he has to show his work because we "The Education System" want him to think and solve the problem the same way we do. The value proposition for him is not there. My older son is the exact opposite, once he learned the mechanics of solving equations and how to apply them to real world problems like fabrication, fuel maps, etc. etc. he was hooked but he is the one that struggles in other areas, because he sees the value proposition of focusing on what he is interested in and sees subjects such as English and Literature as a complete waste of his time. I sympathize with him, because I hated those two subject as well.

by kls 6y ago

learnstats2 6y ago

I think student-led education is a useful model: where students have a say in what they find important and in their own education. (This applies for all children, not only for adolescent boys) The curriculum has too much influence from adults whose goals (sometimes openly stated!) are for a compliant labour force with a reduced training cost on particular work-focussed skills. That's at the expense of (for example:) relationship and mental health education, creative arts, critical thinking skills, financial education, talent development, practical entrepreneurship, and the idea that children can have and create value in their own right. As such, this is regularly a complete mismatch to what's going to be useful to kids when and as they grow up, and kids often know it: even while they don't have the political power to make change.

throwaway316943 6y ago

It boggles my mind how broken the model of rote memorization to pass written tests is. School should teach you the fundamentals of how to acquire knowledge and then get out of your way. Reading, writing, speaking, logic, geometry, mathematics, and programming along with a whirlwind tour of all the good and bad ideas throughout history then pack it up. Instead we have a public babysitting service that pretends to add value when it’s probably no better than dropping your kid off at a library for the day (whether they choose to stay and read or not).

Siira 6y ago
I suspect teachers are the bottleneck. They hardly have any useful skills (except keeping children in line), so they can only teach memorization which is easy to teach/grade.
- jonathanwallace 6y ago
  Your suspicion is incorrect. Twenty years ago, my wife came out of graduate school where they learned about differentiated instruction and inquiry based instruction. The education field is well aware of how to teach better. However, there are obstacles to the implementation. 1. Resources. Inquiry based education (where the children drive the study) requires a different student to teacher ratio than 30:1. 2. Inertia. You need a systemic change otherwise those fresh new teachers with their fancy up to date pedagogy run into #1 and principals, teachers, and students who are not ready for it. 3. Parents. Parents are also not ready for it. You have parents who want to be certain their child is prepared and ranked.
ardy42 6y ago
> It boggles my mind how broken the model of rote memorization to pass written tests is. School should teach you the fundamentals of how to acquire knowledge and then get out of your way. That's utopian and a rather unrealistic, incomplete view. Education is also about imparting a fundamental shared body of knowledge as well, and it also has to deal with a very wide diversity of ability and motivation. Your proposal is pretty lacking in specifics, but what you have in mind seems to be something that's optimized to work very well with an idealized student, which would only be a small fraction of all students, and would likely do worse on average when considering all students. > Reading, writing, speaking, logic, geometry, mathematics, and programming along with a whirlwind tour of all the good and bad ideas throughout history then pack it up. That's a weird list. You include programming but not civics?
- throwaway316943 6y ago
  It’s not particularly utopian, I’m proposing reducing the number of subjects and the duration of public education which should allow for a larger share of the current educational resources to be spent on each student. This is to enable those resources to be spent preparing the student to solve problems themselves. I limited the list to a minimum of topics necessary to consume, produce, synthesize and communicate ideas and information. Programming is in there because I consider it as necessary as literacy and numeracy since it allows you to reify some of your cognition in the same way that writing notes or performing a calculation does. Civics doesn’t belong in that list because it’s not a fundamental skill, it’s not even taught in many countries. A student who has been taught to read comprehensively, communicate clearly and think critically should have no trouble acquiring that knowledge.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > It’s not particularly utopian....A student who has been taught to read comprehensively, communicate clearly and think critically should have no trouble acquiring that knowledge. That sounds pretty utopian. Firstly, I don't think you can reasonably assume any mass educational program will reliably produce students like that, so any program that assumes that will likely fail a large proportion of its students in pretty significant ways. Secondly, your exclusive focus what you define to be "fundamental skills" and exclusion of anything that you deem "not fundamental" seems more of a personal bias than a well-founded educational program. There certainly exist bright and highly-motivated students (perhaps you were one of them) who would build on that foundation and complete their education like you assume they would, but I'd judge they're a minority. Thirdly, there's a social aspect to education that your focus on skills misses. Things like civics need to be part of the curriculum, because even if a student would have no trouble learning the subject independently, there's no guarantee they would actually choose to do so. However, the American system of government (unlike some other systems) can't function without widespread civic knowledge and engagement.

Melting_Harps 6y ago

> Agreed 100%, I have a troubled kid in school right now, who is off the charts smart but the only thing he will apply himself to is Advanced Math, Auto Shop and his Culinary program. If it's not hands on or mechanical he just has no interest in rote memorization. School needs to fundamentally change especially for adolescent males, it just stacks the decks against the high functioning learn by doing types. I often wonder how many great minds we have lost to being store clerk (no looking down on them, its just a waste of a mind if you have it) Huh... this sounds exactly like me growing up, except I took to Biology and did rather poor in Math until I taught myself Bio-centric Calculus in University and realized I actually did understand the concepts and could apply them to my desired ends. I'd start by considering that his formal education should only account for 20% of his actual learning, and use that as a standard which allows him t pursuit other avenues (independent research and projects) outside of his schooling. Which can include College or University level courses, I personally started skipping HS altogether except for exam dates and attending University level Philosphy and Biology courses by Junior year. This wasn't without controversy despite having a cumulative 3.5 GPA. One of the things I always told myself was that I'd buy my child, boy or girl, a non-running car of their choice as an extra circular activity by age 12 in order to have them explore their curiosity, hone their research skills, learn how to apply knowledge to an actual tangible medium and interact with other people who also identify with the same car culture and give them a 'tribe' of sorts which for males is very critical, especially at that age. Furthermore, and this is difficult due to COVID to do in person, but I would encourage you both to watch conferences that are related to those fields and maybe take some entry and then advance classes together on Coursera or Udemy, Khan Academy and all the ED-tech platforms. CU Boulder has a really cool entry level Biology series right now, I attended one of the instructors courses on campus for a few weeks and as person who did their under grad in Bio and then worked in a diagnostics labs for several years I wish I had that kind of instructor in my early formative years--I've only had 2 good teachers, both chemists, my whole Life in ~18 years of formal education. In fact many of us who went through the Academia based Biology track and then turned Biohackers often wished we hadn't done it all, as it stunted our initial curiosity and sense of wonder that is essential in making luminaries and vast advancements in Science in exchange for complying to the rote learning method that yields 'good grades.' Anyhow, I'm glad that you have made this observation in your child's life, I struggled with it a lot with my parents, but ultimately I can tell you that despite the unorthodox methods and leaving my Industry, I achieved a great deal in all of the other Industries I focused on (Biology/Automotive/Culinary-Agriculture and too a smaller degree Fintech) and was able to accomplish a lot from the wide skill-set I had developed through my years of hands-on learning. My parents are very proud of my achievements and are probably more interested in the awards I've gained as a 'polymath' in those fields than I am at this point. My only wish being that I had something more than online friends on Newsgroups and Forums (some who I'd meet in real Life) for support to help guide me through the journey, so I hope you take a hands on approach in your son's life.

krebs_liebhaber 6y ago

> School needs to fundamentally change especially for adolescent males, it just stacks the decks against the high functioning learn by doing types. The point of school is to teach discipline and grit - the subjects in and of themselves are merely incidental. Do you really think that these "great minds" - the kids who can't sit through a lecture and half-ass everything off of natural talent alone - would be doing great things if it weren't for the evil school system getting in the way? "Smart but lazy" is probably the most insufferable combination of character traits. Nothing else even comes close. (See also: "The Bipolar Lisp Programmer" - http://www.marktarver.com/bipolar.html http://www.marktarver.com/bipolar.html)

bergstromm466 6y ago
> The point of school is to teach discipline and grit Have you heard of neoliberal magical voluntarism?
kls 6y ago
The problem is it is not "smart but lazy" it is a value proposition and some kids don't see the value, even if they are smart enough. The reality is many smart kids today know that even higher education, unless specifically focused is a waste of resources. The smart ones generally leave the uni for a business venture before they even complete postsecondary. Further grade inflation and the continuing of lowering standards means that the ones that know how to game the system, can skate in general ed, pull out 2, 4.0 GPA years at community, where they get some choice in their direction, save money and then usually gain admittance into a decent school. As I said, it's not lazy it's a value proposition and in many ways the ones that don't totally wash out, don't see the value in applying their faculties to the endeavor of educating themselves the way the State proscribes. Boot camp is for discipline and grit, compulsory education is well compulsory and you don't get a choice in how you learn, not everyone learns the same, and not everyone is lazy for seeing the emperor has no clothes. Many successful tech Founders/CEO's would meet your definition of "Smart but Lazy" but some smart people do just wash out. Maybe it's just like burnout that is so prevalent in the tech industry, yet they hit it early. For example my youngest son can look at a fairly complex algebraic equation, and within a few seconds he can tell you the answer by calculating it in his head. It's some nearly savant level stuff, one time I asked him how does he do that and he said the equations are a painters pallet, each part has a color, he takes the color and paints a picture in his mind and that picture is the answer. I think you can imagine sitting him down to force him to learn algebra the way most of us do it, is painful to say the least. Not only can he arrive at the answer faster than us, he has to actively suppress the way he learns to learn a process he will never use in reality. He does not see the point, he already has the answer. He is not being lazy, his mind just uses the creative half to solve logic, its pretty messed up, but it works for him, so you can imagine his frustration when he has to show his work because we "The Education System" want him to think and solve the problem the same way we do. The value proposition for him is not there. My older son is the exact opposite, once he learned the mechanics of solving equations and how to apply them to real world problems like fabrication, fuel maps, etc. etc. he was hooked but he is the one that struggles in other areas, because he sees the value proposition of focusing on what he is interested in and sees subjects such as English and Literature as a complete waste of his time. I sympathize with him, because I hated those two subject as well.