5 ms·

You have no sympathy for someone who was told "If you write us a book, we'll give you some money every time we sell one", and then no one gives him the money th

You have no sympathy for someone who was told "If you write us a book, we'll give you some money every time we sell one", and then no one gives him the money they promised? Your hn bio says you are a former Microsoft engineer. This is equivalent to microsoft hiring you, you doing some work for them, and them deciding that they don't need to pay you. Somehow, I don't think you would stand for that.

breck 6y ago
Zero sympathy. Just as I would have no sympathy for a carpenter who carves a baseball bat, sells it to a mob boss, and then asks the mob boss for a share every time he extorts someone with it. Imaginary Property laws are unethical. Doesn't matter what part of the transaction you are a part of, the whole scheme is bad. I stopped getting paid by Microsoft when I stopped working there, even though a billion+ people are using some code that I had a hand in writing. That's the way it should be. When a janitor finishes cleaning a room, does she get 10 cents every time someone enters that room for 80 years? No sympathy.
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  In this case, Lucas Arts is equivalent to the mob and is forcing someone to pay money for their book? > I stopped getting paid by Microsoft when I stopped working there, even though a billion+ people are using some code that I had a hand in writing. That's the way it should be. That's because there was nothing in your contract that you would make royalties for the code you wrote. So of course they wouldn't pay you. But what if they just stopped paying you while you were still working there? > When a janitor finishes cleaning a room, does she get 10 cents every time someone enters that room for 80 years? Again, no, because that's not what the contract says. Do you have a problem with an author writing a book and then selling the book? Or is it just when an author is promised $X in royalties per sale from the company that is actually selling the books that is not ethical?
  - breck 6y ago
    > In this case, Lucas Arts is equivalent to the mob and is forcing someone to pay money for their book? Absolutely. If you pay attention to the beginning of every Disney/Lucas Arts movie, they all start with the threat of violence (proof: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/L3OPoOUMQ2M/hqdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/L3OPoOUMQ2M/hqdefault.jpg). And those aren't baseball bats the FBI carries around in their holsters. > But what if they just stopped paying you while you were still working there? I would stop working there. Many years ago I was a contractor and that happened with a client every now and again. > Do you have a problem with an author writing a book and then selling the book? Nope, no problems with an author writing a book, getting paid to write a book, or giving a book they've written to someone in return for cash. I have a problem with an author expecting "royalties" via an "Imaginary Property Law" scheme enforced by violence.
    - oh_sigh 6y ago
      Let's say I'm a private individual who thinks the world would love a book on robot kittens. The author I want to write the book says she will do it for $1M. But I don't have $1M to pay her. So we both agree that I will pay her some lesser amount, say $100,000, and then give her $1 for every book I sell. She's hoping I will sell more than 900,000 books, and I'm also hoping that. What exactly is unethical about that? How is that any less ethical than an author selling their own book directly, or selling their book wholesale to some other party (who then sells the book)?
      - breck 6y ago
        Absolutely nothing unethical about that. Perhaps foolish, from a business standpoint (I don't know much about robot kittens, but I have to admit it does sound intriguing), but nothing unethical. What is unethical is saying, "you write a book on kittens, I'll print and sell the books and if anyone who buys it from me then tried to make copies, I'll have the government pay them a visit with guns". And that is exactly how our Imaginary Property system works.
        6y ago
- rewgs 6y ago
  Your code is not intellectual property, though. Neither is the janitor's cleaning. A better analogy is you sold a company to Microsoft and retained 10% equity (or any other number, who cares), and Microsoft decided to whatever you're owed in dividends. Intellectual Property is just equity in little businesses, where each song, book, movie, what have you is a little business of its own. The writer is not an employee. He never was. He was contracted to build a business, and was entitled to <50% of its equity. Disney is keeping that equity for himself. Does that elicit any empathy with you, or do you still not understand how this works?
  - breck 6y ago
    Authors and publishers can make any agreements they want to between themselves. But if their agreements depend on the subjugation of a third person or peoples, tough luck getting me to care when one party does not pay the other. In America we have a very deep history with a similar system. > do you still not understand how this works? Ha
- jholman 6y ago
  You do, I assume, feel a bit guilty about having accepted money from a company that was only able to pay you because of imaginary property laws? As one might feel guilty doing honest work, honestly, for a mob boss?
  - breck 6y ago
    Oh totally. I went in there with an open mind, thinking maybe I was wrong about the imaginary property thing. I came out of there more certain that imaginary property laws are bad, however I also came away greatly impressed by all the people there (many who worked there way there from some of the most destitute places on earth, so who am I to say they shouldn’t buy that Tesla because it’s money from imaginary property laws?). I have been secretly confused about Microsoft’s strategy the past 6 or 7 years under Satya. The embrace of Linux, open source, GitHub, vscode; it seems Microsoft is sprinting away from depending on Imaginary Property laws, but that was traditionally the source of their enormous profits in the 90’s. I don’t claim to understand what’s going on at the c-level (those folks are way smarter than me), but it does seem like there is a new game plan. My first week in 2014 people were laughing at me for getting Ubuntu on my machine, and pitching GitHub over SOurceDepot; how things have changed. But yeah, I felt guilty when I crashed my bike on the way to work; walked over to the on site hospital and got X-rays and a sling without a copay ; got paid $50 while I was there to get a flu shot; grabbed a latte on my way back to the desk; committed a few línea; then clocked out early to head to the pool. Knowing that it’s most likely imaginary property laws paying for the utopia in Redmond. I really hope more people can work at places like that, and I do hope that places like that are still possible without an unnatural imaginary property system.

breck 6y ago

Zero sympathy. Just as I would have no sympathy for a carpenter who carves a baseball bat, sells it to a mob boss, and then asks the mob boss for a share every time he extorts someone with it. Imaginary Property laws are unethical. Doesn't matter what part of the transaction you are a part of, the whole scheme is bad. I stopped getting paid by Microsoft when I stopped working there, even though a billion+ people are using some code that I had a hand in writing. That's the way it should be. When a janitor finishes cleaning a room, does she get 10 cents every time someone enters that room for 80 years? No sympathy.

oh_sigh 6y ago
In this case, Lucas Arts is equivalent to the mob and is forcing someone to pay money for their book? > I stopped getting paid by Microsoft when I stopped working there, even though a billion+ people are using some code that I had a hand in writing. That's the way it should be. That's because there was nothing in your contract that you would make royalties for the code you wrote. So of course they wouldn't pay you. But what if they just stopped paying you while you were still working there? > When a janitor finishes cleaning a room, does she get 10 cents every time someone enters that room for 80 years? Again, no, because that's not what the contract says. Do you have a problem with an author writing a book and then selling the book? Or is it just when an author is promised $X in royalties per sale from the company that is actually selling the books that is not ethical?
- breck 6y ago
  > In this case, Lucas Arts is equivalent to the mob and is forcing someone to pay money for their book? Absolutely. If you pay attention to the beginning of every Disney/Lucas Arts movie, they all start with the threat of violence (proof: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/L3OPoOUMQ2M/hqdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/L3OPoOUMQ2M/hqdefault.jpg). And those aren't baseball bats the FBI carries around in their holsters. > But what if they just stopped paying you while you were still working there? I would stop working there. Many years ago I was a contractor and that happened with a client every now and again. > Do you have a problem with an author writing a book and then selling the book? Nope, no problems with an author writing a book, getting paid to write a book, or giving a book they've written to someone in return for cash. I have a problem with an author expecting "royalties" via an "Imaginary Property Law" scheme enforced by violence.
  - oh_sigh 6y ago
    Let's say I'm a private individual who thinks the world would love a book on robot kittens. The author I want to write the book says she will do it for $1M. But I don't have $1M to pay her. So we both agree that I will pay her some lesser amount, say $100,000, and then give her $1 for every book I sell. She's hoping I will sell more than 900,000 books, and I'm also hoping that. What exactly is unethical about that? How is that any less ethical than an author selling their own book directly, or selling their book wholesale to some other party (who then sells the book)?
    - breck 6y ago
      Absolutely nothing unethical about that. Perhaps foolish, from a business standpoint (I don't know much about robot kittens, but I have to admit it does sound intriguing), but nothing unethical. What is unethical is saying, "you write a book on kittens, I'll print and sell the books and if anyone who buys it from me then tried to make copies, I'll have the government pay them a visit with guns". And that is exactly how our Imaginary Property system works.
      - 6y ago
rewgs 6y ago
Your code is not intellectual property, though. Neither is the janitor's cleaning. A better analogy is you sold a company to Microsoft and retained 10% equity (or any other number, who cares), and Microsoft decided to whatever you're owed in dividends. Intellectual Property is just equity in little businesses, where each song, book, movie, what have you is a little business of its own. The writer is not an employee. He never was. He was contracted to build a business, and was entitled to <50% of its equity. Disney is keeping that equity for himself. Does that elicit any empathy with you, or do you still not understand how this works?
- breck 6y ago
  Authors and publishers can make any agreements they want to between themselves. But if their agreements depend on the subjugation of a third person or peoples, tough luck getting me to care when one party does not pay the other. In America we have a very deep history with a similar system. > do you still not understand how this works? Ha
jholman 6y ago
You do, I assume, feel a bit guilty about having accepted money from a company that was only able to pay you because of imaginary property laws? As one might feel guilty doing honest work, honestly, for a mob boss?
- breck 6y ago
  Oh totally. I went in there with an open mind, thinking maybe I was wrong about the imaginary property thing. I came out of there more certain that imaginary property laws are bad, however I also came away greatly impressed by all the people there (many who worked there way there from some of the most destitute places on earth, so who am I to say they shouldn’t buy that Tesla because it’s money from imaginary property laws?). I have been secretly confused about Microsoft’s strategy the past 6 or 7 years under Satya. The embrace of Linux, open source, GitHub, vscode; it seems Microsoft is sprinting away from depending on Imaginary Property laws, but that was traditionally the source of their enormous profits in the 90’s. I don’t claim to understand what’s going on at the c-level (those folks are way smarter than me), but it does seem like there is a new game plan. My first week in 2014 people were laughing at me for getting Ubuntu on my machine, and pitching GitHub over SOurceDepot; how things have changed. But yeah, I felt guilty when I crashed my bike on the way to work; walked over to the on site hospital and got X-rays and a sling without a copay ; got paid $50 while I was there to get a flu shot; grabbed a latte on my way back to the desk; committed a few línea; then clocked out early to head to the pool. Knowing that it’s most likely imaginary property laws paying for the utopia in Redmond. I really hope more people can work at places like that, and I do hope that places like that are still possible without an unnatural imaginary property system.