6 ms·

I wish they would compare to a 1080Ti or something along those lines. Nevertheless, this is pretty neat minus the RAM implications because realistically, I'm gu

I wish they would compare to a 1080Ti or something along those lines. Nevertheless, this is pretty neat minus the RAM implications because realistically, I'm guessing you can use 5GB of RAM at most for training. I always wanted a computer where I can test the model for a couple batches (that doesn't cost $1200+) and then push to the cloud to train for scalability.

tpetry 6y ago
Seems i am not the only one who wants to know whether the M1 neural engine is performant enough for prototyping :) It will be interesting how long the other deep learning frameworks will need to support the M1. Pytorch has not yet achieved comparable performance on a TPU compared to tensorflow.
- syntaxing 6y ago
  It would be pretty awesome to write an app, train the network, and deploy it using the same computer! I sometimes try to use google Colab to train some fun stuff (like style transfer) but sometimes it gives me a headache (grateful it is free though!!) It's hard to predict if the session will just stop and persistent data is a pain. Having an affordable (ironic using this word with Apple) for ML prototyping would be amazing.
- FPGAhacker 6y ago
  You know, they don’t mention the neural engine. I know very little of ML but maybe the neural engine isn’t helpful on the training side?
  - meowphius 6y ago
    The API of the neural engine is closed for some reason.
    - therealmarv 6y ago
      really? So WHO can use it then when not normal developers? Only Apple?
      - my123 6y ago
        It is not. See https://developer.apple.com/documentation/coreml https://developer.apple.com/documentation/coreml and https://github.com/apple/coremltools https://github.com/apple/coremltools. The neural engine on the Apple A11 wasn't exposed to apps at least at launch, but that's no longer a thing on A12 onwards.
- skwb 6y ago
  My gut instincts (based off of nothing but pure speculation and being a ML developer for several years) says no. For one, the M1 engine has 16 cores, vs over 1,500 for a 1660 series NVIDA card. I know it may not be apples to apples, but I have a very hard time believing it would be able to keep up with even the most marginal card for training.
  - wffurr 6y ago
    I don’t know about the neural engine, but the GPU on the M1 has 128 EUs in each of the 8 cores, making for 1024 EUs total. It’s not quite in the same league as a 1660 Ti but it’s close: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-tested/3 https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-teste...
spideymans 6y ago
> Nevertheless, this is pretty neat minus the RAM implications because realistically, I'm guessing you can use 5GB of RAM at most for training This will only be an issue for the first few months of the transition to Apple Silicon. Upcoming updates to the rest of the lineup will undoubtedly have more unified memory
- syntaxing 6y ago
  I'm torn because of this. The mac mini just got on sale at Costco for $649. Really tempted to purchase it now but intuition is telling me to wait for the 16GB RAM.
  - dan1234 6y ago
    You can already spec the M1 with 16GB, it’s just pretty pricey. I don’t even want to think what the 32GB and above will cost.
    - joshstrange 6y ago
      I mean, I got the 15" 2018 MBP with 32GB i9 500GB w/ dedicated graphics for $3,899.00. A MBP 13" with 16GB and 1TB is only $1,899.00. I'd fall over myself to buy a M2/M1Z (whatever they call it) with 32-64GB ram and 1TB ssd for as much as I paid for my last MBP. I honestly couldn't be happier that the new 13 MBP doesn't fit my needs or I'd be very tempted to get one. Thankfully now I can wait for the virtualization story to stabilize, wait for more ram, and wait for more external display support (all of which I need). I know that Apple charges a premium for their upgrades but from everything I've seen so far from the new 13" MBP I'll be happy to pay that premium this time around. I have always found the comparisons of ram/ssd in recent Apple MBP's to generic parts to be slightly disingenuous. Raw speeds don't really matter as much as how well everything works together in my experience and the new AS computers seem to take that to an even higher level.
physicsyogi 6y ago
It's not quite what you're asking for, but there's a comparison to the 1050Ti: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/11/16/m1-beats-geforce-gtx-1050-ti-and-radeon-rx-560/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/11/16/m1-beats-geforce-gtx-10...
- syntaxing 6y ago
  Does graphic performance indicated ML training performance (to a certain degree)? Is it fair to say that if graphically it performs better, the ML training will be better with the proper software support?

tpetry 6y ago

Seems i am not the only one who wants to know whether the M1 neural engine is performant enough for prototyping :) It will be interesting how long the other deep learning frameworks will need to support the M1. Pytorch has not yet achieved comparable performance on a TPU compared to tensorflow.

syntaxing 6y ago
It would be pretty awesome to write an app, train the network, and deploy it using the same computer! I sometimes try to use google Colab to train some fun stuff (like style transfer) but sometimes it gives me a headache (grateful it is free though!!) It's hard to predict if the session will just stop and persistent data is a pain. Having an affordable (ironic using this word with Apple) for ML prototyping would be amazing.
FPGAhacker 6y ago
You know, they don’t mention the neural engine. I know very little of ML but maybe the neural engine isn’t helpful on the training side?
- meowphius 6y ago
  The API of the neural engine is closed for some reason.
  - therealmarv 6y ago
    really? So WHO can use it then when not normal developers? Only Apple?
    - my123 6y ago
      It is not. See https://developer.apple.com/documentation/coreml https://developer.apple.com/documentation/coreml and https://github.com/apple/coremltools https://github.com/apple/coremltools. The neural engine on the Apple A11 wasn't exposed to apps at least at launch, but that's no longer a thing on A12 onwards.
skwb 6y ago
My gut instincts (based off of nothing but pure speculation and being a ML developer for several years) says no. For one, the M1 engine has 16 cores, vs over 1,500 for a 1660 series NVIDA card. I know it may not be apples to apples, but I have a very hard time believing it would be able to keep up with even the most marginal card for training.
- wffurr 6y ago
  I don’t know about the neural engine, but the GPU on the M1 has 128 EUs in each of the 8 cores, making for 1024 EUs total. It’s not quite in the same league as a 1660 Ti but it’s close: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-tested/3 https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-teste...

spideymans 6y ago

> Nevertheless, this is pretty neat minus the RAM implications because realistically, I'm guessing you can use 5GB of RAM at most for training This will only be an issue for the first few months of the transition to Apple Silicon. Upcoming updates to the rest of the lineup will undoubtedly have more unified memory

syntaxing 6y ago
I'm torn because of this. The mac mini just got on sale at Costco for $649. Really tempted to purchase it now but intuition is telling me to wait for the 16GB RAM.
- dan1234 6y ago
  You can already spec the M1 with 16GB, it’s just pretty pricey. I don’t even want to think what the 32GB and above will cost.
  - joshstrange 6y ago
    I mean, I got the 15" 2018 MBP with 32GB i9 500GB w/ dedicated graphics for $3,899.00. A MBP 13" with 16GB and 1TB is only $1,899.00. I'd fall over myself to buy a M2/M1Z (whatever they call it) with 32-64GB ram and 1TB ssd for as much as I paid for my last MBP. I honestly couldn't be happier that the new 13 MBP doesn't fit my needs or I'd be very tempted to get one. Thankfully now I can wait for the virtualization story to stabilize, wait for more ram, and wait for more external display support (all of which I need). I know that Apple charges a premium for their upgrades but from everything I've seen so far from the new 13" MBP I'll be happy to pay that premium this time around. I have always found the comparisons of ram/ssd in recent Apple MBP's to generic parts to be slightly disingenuous. Raw speeds don't really matter as much as how well everything works together in my experience and the new AS computers seem to take that to an even higher level.

physicsyogi 6y ago

It's not quite what you're asking for, but there's a comparison to the 1050Ti: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/11/16/m1-beats-geforce-gtx-1050-ti-and-radeon-rx-560/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/11/16/m1-beats-geforce-gtx-10...

syntaxing 6y ago
Does graphic performance indicated ML training performance (to a certain degree)? Is it fair to say that if graphically it performs better, the ML training will be better with the proper software support?