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I don't think we expect everyone to be reasonably moral, at least I don't live with that expectation - that's just setting yourself up for disappointment. Yes,

I don't think we expect everyone to be reasonably moral, at least I don't live with that expectation - that's just setting yourself up for disappointment. Yes, most people don't murder or rape, but we're still quite a selfish and survivalist creature. Although we know perfectly well the amount of suffering the meat industry causes, most of us are fine with consuming meat and dairy, as long as we don't need to see the images of how the meat gets to our plate. Mostly because it tastes good; red meat is actually unhealthy. That's just one tiny example that leads me to think we're not reasonably moral. I'm not saying we can't be taught morals, but we have a long way to go till we can say what's happening is "reasonable".

ironmagma 6y ago
Food science findings (which tend to be unreliable) aside, eating food is something that’s hard to fault someone else for doing. The fact that most people eat meat alone is something that makes it more of a reasonable thing to do, even more so that we typically don’t find out about the conditions of cows, chickens, etc. until we are already mostly grown and hooked on the stuff. Morality is a complicated thing to define[citation needed] but I would posit we actually generally have a high moral standard for each other in the west. We expect each other to not lie pathologically, push others away when they take advantage of those around them (e.g. scammers, con artists) enforce the rules of monogamous relationships (for the vast majority), return lost belongings to each other, encourage food safety, and so on. And you can find secular explanations for all of those, but most people are just taught that those are the right things and stick to it. Sure, some of the integrity of those areas are eroding over time, but generally speaking society is still held together with morals.
- joelbluminator 6y ago
  Its not eating food that I have a problem with. Its choosing steaks, pork and beef when there is a huge amount of alternatives. The fact we are brought up like that and are hooked does not make it any better or morally sound. The fact that everyone is doing it makes it Ok in your eyes? Please explain. Everyone was a nazi in Germany at a certain point.
  - ironmagma 6y ago
    It doesn’t make it OK, it just makes it bad and reasonable. If I’m in Nazi Germany and all my friends and family are Nazis, and my neighbor too, I’m going to think less of my neighbor but not exactly hold it against him as much as if there were 100 Nazis in the country and he was one. There’s reasons people have at that point for being Nazi, even though the thing is ultimately terrible. Group dynamics, which are more or less baked into our (epi)genetics, for one. In America we pretty much all get a pass for buying clothes, for instance, which has some considerable moral strings attached to it. We could make our own, but that’s just not a reasonable way to live life here. You would have no company if that was the way you chose to spend your time, so it would be a sad existence, and as humans we are wired to want to behave like those around us.
    - joelbluminator 6y ago
      Well you kinda solidify my argument that we don't expect people to be moral, at least not 100% or not even 50%. We expect them not to break society's rules, and whatever capitalism allows - they can do, with no social stigma. We give each other a free pass because we know change is hard (is that the functioning of a society striving to be moral?) Now whatever capitalism allows - meat, unbridled consumerism, extreme selfishness etc, these are things with severe side effects. In the case of buying clothes the suffering is a bit more subtle (I suppose you refer to worker's conditions in poor countries), and since it's paying for someone's job somewhere you could argue it's in the grey area. But the meat industry isn't in the grey area, it couldn't be more black than it is.
      - ironmagma 6y ago
        I wouldn’t say it couldn’t be a grey area. For many, it’s easier to get fresh meat than it is to get fresh vegetables, such as if you’re a farmer in a food desert but you have livestock, or even if you’re just living in a place like Alaska where a lot does not grow. There are also dietary restrictions leading some people to need a higher than average or even entirely carnivorous diet. Bottom line is that while there may be morality inflation, i.e. when you judge the modern lifestyle on an absolute scale, it looks bad, that there is still a range of acceptability, and if you venture outside of it, that’s no bueno. That doesn’t mean we don’t expect people to be moral (100% would be “perfect”).

ironmagma 6y ago

Food science findings (which tend to be unreliable) aside, eating food is something that’s hard to fault someone else for doing. The fact that most people eat meat alone is something that makes it more of a reasonable thing to do, even more so that we typically don’t find out about the conditions of cows, chickens, etc. until we are already mostly grown and hooked on the stuff. Morality is a complicated thing to define[citation needed] but I would posit we actually generally have a high moral standard for each other in the west. We expect each other to not lie pathologically, push others away when they take advantage of those around them (e.g. scammers, con artists) enforce the rules of monogamous relationships (for the vast majority), return lost belongings to each other, encourage food safety, and so on. And you can find secular explanations for all of those, but most people are just taught that those are the right things and stick to it. Sure, some of the integrity of those areas are eroding over time, but generally speaking society is still held together with morals.

joelbluminator 6y ago
Its not eating food that I have a problem with. Its choosing steaks, pork and beef when there is a huge amount of alternatives. The fact we are brought up like that and are hooked does not make it any better or morally sound. The fact that everyone is doing it makes it Ok in your eyes? Please explain. Everyone was a nazi in Germany at a certain point.
- ironmagma 6y ago
  It doesn’t make it OK, it just makes it bad and reasonable. If I’m in Nazi Germany and all my friends and family are Nazis, and my neighbor too, I’m going to think less of my neighbor but not exactly hold it against him as much as if there were 100 Nazis in the country and he was one. There’s reasons people have at that point for being Nazi, even though the thing is ultimately terrible. Group dynamics, which are more or less baked into our (epi)genetics, for one. In America we pretty much all get a pass for buying clothes, for instance, which has some considerable moral strings attached to it. We could make our own, but that’s just not a reasonable way to live life here. You would have no company if that was the way you chose to spend your time, so it would be a sad existence, and as humans we are wired to want to behave like those around us.
  - joelbluminator 6y ago
    Well you kinda solidify my argument that we don't expect people to be moral, at least not 100% or not even 50%. We expect them not to break society's rules, and whatever capitalism allows - they can do, with no social stigma. We give each other a free pass because we know change is hard (is that the functioning of a society striving to be moral?) Now whatever capitalism allows - meat, unbridled consumerism, extreme selfishness etc, these are things with severe side effects. In the case of buying clothes the suffering is a bit more subtle (I suppose you refer to worker's conditions in poor countries), and since it's paying for someone's job somewhere you could argue it's in the grey area. But the meat industry isn't in the grey area, it couldn't be more black than it is.
    - ironmagma 6y ago
      I wouldn’t say it couldn’t be a grey area. For many, it’s easier to get fresh meat than it is to get fresh vegetables, such as if you’re a farmer in a food desert but you have livestock, or even if you’re just living in a place like Alaska where a lot does not grow. There are also dietary restrictions leading some people to need a higher than average or even entirely carnivorous diet. Bottom line is that while there may be morality inflation, i.e. when you judge the modern lifestyle on an absolute scale, it looks bad, that there is still a range of acceptability, and if you venture outside of it, that’s no bueno. That doesn’t mean we don’t expect people to be moral (100% would be “perfect”).