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The core problem here is that Apple is still disallowing users from side-loading / installing iOS apps from outside of the official App Store. My question: wha

by medhir 6y ago

The core problem here is that Apple is still disallowing users from side-loading / installing iOS apps from outside of the official App Store. My question: what is stopping us from demanding a legislative solution that requires Apple to open up the iOS platform to allow installation of apps outside its sanctioned ecosystem? With ARM Macs now on the market, the hardware architecture / software differences between their mobile and desktop platforms is becoming smaller and smaller. The argument that mobile devices should be treated differently from any other general computing device has always been weird. But now the disparity is now ever more glaring given how similar iPhones, iPads, and Macs have become. We should be demanding openness and the right to modify software as the end user sees fit. This does not preclude users looking for a more secure experience to continue exclusively loading apps from the App Store.

neolog 6y ago
Why not get an Android device?
- halfnormalform 6y ago
  Because they sell your digital soul to advertisers.
  - threeseed 6y ago
    Which is exactly what would happen if there were third party app stores. It would be a race to the bottom where they all ended up with zero margins but where your data is sold to third parties.
    - toyg 6y ago
      Nobody would stop a quality alternative from holding out. Not unlike Apple surviving the onslaught of cheap PC clones.
    - badsectoracula 6y ago
      How does me being able to install an application i downloaded from F-Droid, GitHub or whatever other place i might trust or even developed myself on my phone without having to pay or get Apple's permission mean that Apple will sell my data to 3rd parties?
      - jimmydorry 6y ago
        Not GP, but if enough people were conditioned to install their apps from sources outside of the appstore, Apple may end up seeing their AppStore margins shrink and do a pivot to selling user data.
        yoz-y 6y ago
        That's not it, even with the numbers Apple touts they are getting from the App Store, they could comfortably live without. It's the third party app stores that would sell the aggregate data instead of taking a cut off sales.
        badsectoracula 6y ago
        But that isn't something that has to happen, only something that Apple may choose to do. They do not have to, however.
    - walrus01 6y ago
      > Which is exactly what would happen if there were third party app stores. there already are lots of third-party android app stores, if you look at the variants of android packaged and shipped on new-in-box phones in mainland china.
  - neolog 6y ago
    Source?
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  Android is hobbled, as well. The only way to implement automatic upgrading, background installation or batch upgrading/installation of apps is via the Play Store. Not only that, but most people have no idea how to side load apps, and Android doesn't make it easy. Both Google and Apple have kept a stranglehold on the mobile app distribution market for over a decade now.
  - freedomben 6y ago
    > Not only that, but most people have no idea how to side load apps, and Android doesn't make it easy. I completely disagree. I'm not sure how they could make it much easier without defaulting to allowing it. Download the APK, open it, click install (or if the setting disallows it, follow the prompt to change the setting).
    - johannes1234321 6y ago
      The tour via settings isn't that easy for "Joe Average" and updating isn't easy as well.
      - Andys 6y ago
        This is a good thing! It shouldn't be too easy, just easily possible for someone who knows what they're doing (What we used to call "power users", what happened to those?)
        johannes1234321 6y ago
        The point in this sun thread is "phone creators make it hard to use other app stores, that's anti-competitiom", the GP claimed "it's easy on android, come on" I refused that notion. I didn't make a statement about the value as I'm conflicted. I see the issues of the Windows desktop, where users install whatever they find as administrator without second thought, but I also see the issue of gatekeepers apple and Google ...
      - mdorazio 6y ago
fbelzile 6y ago
> What is stopping us from demanding a legislative solution that requires Apple to open up the iOS platform to allow installation of apps outside its sanctioned ecosystem? Apple is already tying two products together (App Store commissions and iOS). I think the answer is to have a court opinion declare that app store commissions are not naturally related to iOS. It shouldn't be too hard to prove this given that third-party developers are not the same developers that created iOS and that iOS is a fully-featured enough to be considered a general computing device. There's already legal precedence for this with United Sates v. Microsoft where Microsoft tried to ban Netscape and Java from being installed on Windows [1]. Epic could/should be using that in their lawsuit in order to be allowed to run on iOS. The App Store is Apple's territory, and that's fine. iOS isn't the App Store and the user should have the right in deciding what code runs on the device they purchased. > Tying is the practice of selling one product or service (ie: commissions from App Store) as a mandatory addition to the purchase of a different product or service (ie: iPhone). In legal terms, a tying sale makes the sale of one good (the tying good) to the de facto customer (or de jure customer) conditional on the purchase of a second distinctive good (the tied good). Tying is often illegal when the products are not naturally related. In the United States, most states have laws against tying, which are enforced by state governments. In addition, the U.S. Department of Justice enforces federal laws against tying through its Antitrust Division. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor.... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tying_(commerce) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tying_(commerce)
- smachiz 6y ago
  You are not a lawyer I presume. This isn't remotely related to tying - and buying an iPhone doesn't force you to buy anything at all from the app store. And it's completely unrelated to any commissions from the App store. If you read more of the wikipedia article, you'll see Apple and Microsoft come up - but either entirely different issues that are wholly unrelated to their App Store pricing.
  - lukeschlather 6y ago
    The point is that this is analogous to Microsoft shipping Internet Explorer with Windows to try and kill Netscape. Apple does the same thing with their app store. Except this goes a step further: imagine how the Microsoft antitrust suit would have gone if in addition to shipping a free competing product, Microsoft had built something into Windows so that Netscape wouldn't run at all and demanded Netscape only sell their browser through Microsoft Internet Explorer with Microsoft taking a 30% commission.

by medhir 6y ago

neolog 6y ago

Why not get an Android device?

halfnormalform 6y ago
Because they sell your digital soul to advertisers.
- threeseed 6y ago
  Which is exactly what would happen if there were third party app stores. It would be a race to the bottom where they all ended up with zero margins but where your data is sold to third parties.
  - toyg 6y ago
    Nobody would stop a quality alternative from holding out. Not unlike Apple surviving the onslaught of cheap PC clones.
  - badsectoracula 6y ago
    How does me being able to install an application i downloaded from F-Droid, GitHub or whatever other place i might trust or even developed myself on my phone without having to pay or get Apple's permission mean that Apple will sell my data to 3rd parties?
    - jimmydorry 6y ago
      Not GP, but if enough people were conditioned to install their apps from sources outside of the appstore, Apple may end up seeing their AppStore margins shrink and do a pivot to selling user data.
      - yoz-y 6y ago
        That's not it, even with the numbers Apple touts they are getting from the App Store, they could comfortably live without. It's the third party app stores that would sell the aggregate data instead of taking a cut off sales.
      - badsectoracula 6y ago
        But that isn't something that has to happen, only something that Apple may choose to do. They do not have to, however.
  - walrus01 6y ago
    > Which is exactly what would happen if there were third party app stores. there already are lots of third-party android app stores, if you look at the variants of android packaged and shipped on new-in-box phones in mainland china.
- neolog 6y ago
  Source?
heavyset_go 6y ago
Android is hobbled, as well. The only way to implement automatic upgrading, background installation or batch upgrading/installation of apps is via the Play Store. Not only that, but most people have no idea how to side load apps, and Android doesn't make it easy. Both Google and Apple have kept a stranglehold on the mobile app distribution market for over a decade now.
- freedomben 6y ago
  > Not only that, but most people have no idea how to side load apps, and Android doesn't make it easy. I completely disagree. I'm not sure how they could make it much easier without defaulting to allowing it. Download the APK, open it, click install (or if the setting disallows it, follow the prompt to change the setting).
  - johannes1234321 6y ago
    The tour via settings isn't that easy for "Joe Average" and updating isn't easy as well.
    - Andys 6y ago
      This is a good thing! It shouldn't be too easy, just easily possible for someone who knows what they're doing (What we used to call "power users", what happened to those?)
      - johannes1234321 6y ago
        The point in this sun thread is "phone creators make it hard to use other app stores, that's anti-competitiom", the GP claimed "it's easy on android, come on" I refused that notion. I didn't make a statement about the value as I'm conflicted. I see the issues of the Windows desktop, where users install whatever they find as administrator without second thought, but I also see the issue of gatekeepers apple and Google ...
    - mdorazio 6y ago

fbelzile 6y ago

> What is stopping us from demanding a legislative solution that requires Apple to open up the iOS platform to allow installation of apps outside its sanctioned ecosystem? Apple is already tying two products together (App Store commissions and iOS). I think the answer is to have a court opinion declare that app store commissions are not naturally related to iOS. It shouldn't be too hard to prove this given that third-party developers are not the same developers that created iOS and that iOS is a fully-featured enough to be considered a general computing device. There's already legal precedence for this with United Sates v. Microsoft where Microsoft tried to ban Netscape and Java from being installed on Windows [1]. Epic could/should be using that in their lawsuit in order to be allowed to run on iOS. The App Store is Apple's territory, and that's fine. iOS isn't the App Store and the user should have the right in deciding what code runs on the device they purchased. > Tying is the practice of selling one product or service (ie: commissions from App Store) as a mandatory addition to the purchase of a different product or service (ie: iPhone). In legal terms, a tying sale makes the sale of one good (the tying good) to the de facto customer (or de jure customer) conditional on the purchase of a second distinctive good (the tied good). Tying is often illegal when the products are not naturally related. In the United States, most states have laws against tying, which are enforced by state governments. In addition, the U.S. Department of Justice enforces federal laws against tying through its Antitrust Division. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor.... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tying_(commerce) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tying_(commerce)

smachiz 6y ago
You are not a lawyer I presume. This isn't remotely related to tying - and buying an iPhone doesn't force you to buy anything at all from the app store. And it's completely unrelated to any commissions from the App store. If you read more of the wikipedia article, you'll see Apple and Microsoft come up - but either entirely different issues that are wholly unrelated to their App Store pricing.
- lukeschlather 6y ago
  The point is that this is analogous to Microsoft shipping Internet Explorer with Windows to try and kill Netscape. Apple does the same thing with their app store. Except this goes a step further: imagine how the Microsoft antitrust suit would have gone if in addition to shipping a free competing product, Microsoft had built something into Windows so that Netscape wouldn't run at all and demanded Netscape only sell their browser through Microsoft Internet Explorer with Microsoft taking a 30% commission.