7 ms·

I genuinely believe that if alcohol wasn't "invented" thousands of years ago most societies would treat it like they treat dangerous and physically harmful drug

I genuinely believe that if alcohol wasn't "invented" thousands of years ago most societies would treat it like they treat dangerous and physically harmful drugs like heroin or cocaine. Looking at the data and what we know about biochemistry and human physiology, it's absolutely indefensible that alcohol is available in every corner store but possessing the marijuana equivalent of a single bottle of liquor sends someone to prison for years.

Rapzid 6y ago
Well there is a huge effort to legalize marijuana and that effort appears to be slowly winning.
sosborn 6y ago
It is indefensible that alcohol is available, or it is indefensible that marijuana possession leads to prison?
- minikites 6y ago
  Both, in my opinion. I don't think we should return to Prohibition times but I do think it should be significantly more difficult and costly to purchase alcohol.
  - lstodd 6y ago
    It is even more trivial to brew and optionally distill alcohol than to grow marijuana. So all that "difficult and costly" would achieve is an increase of dangerous homebrew substances being consumed.
    - minikites 6y ago
      Prohibition was a failure for a number of reasons, but alcohol use did go down and has remained lower than it was pre-Prohibition. Not everyone is going to have the time/energy/resources/interest to brew their own alcohol.
      - tarentel 6y ago
        No it hasn't https://apnews.com/article/f1f81ade0748410aaeb6eeab7a772bf7 https://apnews.com/article/f1f81ade0748410aaeb6eeab7a772bf7
        minikites 6y ago
        Did you read the article? > Historians say drinking was heaviest in the early 1800s, with estimates that in 1830 the average U.S. adult downed the equivalent of 7 gallons a year. > These days it’s about 2.3 gallons, according to federal calculations. That works out to nearly 500 drinks, or about nine per week.
  - inglor_cz 6y ago
    IDK. During my trip to Finland, where alcohol sales follow this paternalistic approach, it struck me as odd how many "obviously problematic" alcoholics I met in the streets of Helsinki. Some of them drank window cleaning fluids and similar substitutes. Libertarianish Tallinn 90 kms away seemed to cope better.
    - antepodius 6y ago
      People want to drink, and those who want to drink the most will also be the least reserved about what they drink. It's the circle of life!
  - benc666 6y ago
    That's a valid view, but some alcohol in moderation certainly helps grease the wheels of social interaction. This is probably why alcohol was known since ancient times. I'll cite: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_alcoholic_drinks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_alcoholic_drinks] [https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/02/alcohol-discovery-addiction-booze-human-culture/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/02/alcohol-...]
  - ooboe 6y ago
    In many developed countries with universal health care, alcohol is significantly taxed in part to contribute to health care costs. Canada is one example and, as a result, alcohol is generally much more expensive than in USA. This despite the large volumes and purchasing power of the provincial liquour boards (as private sales are limited, to varying degrees according to province).
efnx 6y ago
I agree, but it depends on where you live. Here in California it’s legal recreationally. Psilocybin mushrooms are next. It is a great hypocrisy that some substances are so vilified and criminalized while others are sold openly to great profit. I have a feeling it simply has to do with _who_ stood to benefit the most when those substances first became known. It will take a lot of work to correct but with good education and open minds we’ll get there.
codethief 6y ago
> alcohol is available in every corner store The problem is: Alcohol is available to anyone, whether corner stores offer it or not. Just take your favorite type of fruit and let it rot. So alcohol being legal is probably also a consequence of the fact that it is very hard to forbid. (Case in point: The Prohibition.)
- minikites 6y ago
  Anyone can grow marijuana (it's called "weed" for a reason) but our punitive justice system does a decent job of discouraging most people. We don't have to prohibit alcohol completely to blunt most of the large scale social and health problems it causes.
  - cashewchoo 6y ago
    I do think alcohol is qualitatively different in how easy is it to make, though. For MJ you need specific seeds, which you can't just buy at target. Whereas with a google search and a quick trip to the grocery store you're better equipped to make moonshine than the best shiners of prohibition.
  - cogman10 6y ago
    Big difference is how easy it is to spot weed growers vs fermenters. Fermentation simply requires a warm dark place to take place (the darker the better). Which means you can EASILY ferment a lot of alcohol with very little input. Weed, on the other hand, is a plant. Plants need light and water (and quite a bit of it). This is why weed gets busted so frequently. Small scale is harder to detect, but large scale weed growth has a BUNCH of tell tale signs.
    - QuercusMax 6y ago
      Fermentation is also pretty quick - if you know what you're doing, you can turn around a very tasty 5% beer in a week. Growing cannabis requires months, plus time to cure.
    - GordonS 6y ago
inglor_cz 6y ago
MJ has been smoked for centuries as well, the reasons why it ended up being superillegal in the USA are rather recent and rather weird.
colordrops 6y ago
One reason alcohol is so prevalent is that it's a natural product of fermentation of items that we consume. There are videos of dozens of different species of animals drunk on alcohol in rotten food out in the environment. I wouldn't be surprised that the reason we can function relatively well with alcohol use is that we evolved to tolerate it.
- lbarrow 6y ago
  I had a class on human development where the professor went in the exact opposite direction on this point. Alcohol is basically a mild poison, but it doesn't trigger morning sickness in pregnant women, which you'd think it should given the negative effects it has on the fetus. The lack of evolved response suggests that widespread alcohol consumption is actually a relatively recent development for human beings.
bregma 6y ago
I dunno. Where I live I can go to the cannabis store across from the liquor store in the big-box mall and purchase reasonable rations of each using my credit card and not get arrested. I can even go to the government-owned websites and order cannabis or liquor online for delivery. I have also been to Peru where I was woken each day with a hot cup of coca tea and I could buy packaged coca leaves in the supermarkets. I think "most societies" treat psychoactive substances with respect and toleration and view the over-consumption or inappropriate use as a disease that needs treatment. It is only a few social outliers that do not.
- nickysielicki 6y ago
  Are you aware that purchasing marijuana this way puts you on a list that prevents you from passing a NICS background check for firearms? How do you feel about that? I’m amazed at how many of my friends have MMJ cards or go to recreation stores and have no problem with their ID being scanned — fully unaware that they’re permanently rescinding their 2nd amendment rights so that they can get a little high. This (IMO) is why Biden is unlikely to support federal legalization of pot, by the way. They want to keep it on the books with decriminalization and unenforcement policies so the ATF policy stays in place. Anyway, my broader point is that buying marijuana, even in legal states, is not at all the same as buying beer or tea. You’re not made a second class citizen by buying tea or beer.
  - t-writescode 6y ago
    Given they’re paying with a credit card, it’s very safe to assume they’re not in the United States and don’t care at all.
  - vangelis 6y ago
    Which is very dumb. I'd venture that someone under the influence of alcohol (especially with a history of DUIs) is more likely to cap the wife and kids than a primarily cannabis user.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
joduplessis 6y ago
It wasn't invented. It was discovered. Even wild animals know alcohol.
- minikites 6y ago
  Why do you think I put quotes around "invented"?

Rapzid 6y ago

Well there is a huge effort to legalize marijuana and that effort appears to be slowly winning.

sosborn 6y ago

It is indefensible that alcohol is available, or it is indefensible that marijuana possession leads to prison?

minikites 6y ago
Both, in my opinion. I don't think we should return to Prohibition times but I do think it should be significantly more difficult and costly to purchase alcohol.
- lstodd 6y ago
  It is even more trivial to brew and optionally distill alcohol than to grow marijuana. So all that "difficult and costly" would achieve is an increase of dangerous homebrew substances being consumed.
  - minikites 6y ago
    Prohibition was a failure for a number of reasons, but alcohol use did go down and has remained lower than it was pre-Prohibition. Not everyone is going to have the time/energy/resources/interest to brew their own alcohol.
    - tarentel 6y ago
      No it hasn't https://apnews.com/article/f1f81ade0748410aaeb6eeab7a772bf7 https://apnews.com/article/f1f81ade0748410aaeb6eeab7a772bf7
      - minikites 6y ago
        Did you read the article? > Historians say drinking was heaviest in the early 1800s, with estimates that in 1830 the average U.S. adult downed the equivalent of 7 gallons a year. > These days it’s about 2.3 gallons, according to federal calculations. That works out to nearly 500 drinks, or about nine per week.
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  IDK. During my trip to Finland, where alcohol sales follow this paternalistic approach, it struck me as odd how many "obviously problematic" alcoholics I met in the streets of Helsinki. Some of them drank window cleaning fluids and similar substitutes. Libertarianish Tallinn 90 kms away seemed to cope better.
  - antepodius 6y ago
    People want to drink, and those who want to drink the most will also be the least reserved about what they drink. It's the circle of life!
- benc666 6y ago
  That's a valid view, but some alcohol in moderation certainly helps grease the wheels of social interaction. This is probably why alcohol was known since ancient times. I'll cite: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_alcoholic_drinks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_alcoholic_drinks] [https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/02/alcohol-discovery-addiction-booze-human-culture/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/02/alcohol-...]
- ooboe 6y ago
  In many developed countries with universal health care, alcohol is significantly taxed in part to contribute to health care costs. Canada is one example and, as a result, alcohol is generally much more expensive than in USA. This despite the large volumes and purchasing power of the provincial liquour boards (as private sales are limited, to varying degrees according to province).

efnx 6y ago

I agree, but it depends on where you live. Here in California it’s legal recreationally. Psilocybin mushrooms are next. It is a great hypocrisy that some substances are so vilified and criminalized while others are sold openly to great profit. I have a feeling it simply has to do with _who_ stood to benefit the most when those substances first became known. It will take a lot of work to correct but with good education and open minds we’ll get there.

codethief 6y ago

> alcohol is available in every corner store The problem is: Alcohol is available to anyone, whether corner stores offer it or not. Just take your favorite type of fruit and let it rot. So alcohol being legal is probably also a consequence of the fact that it is very hard to forbid. (Case in point: The Prohibition.)

minikites 6y ago
Anyone can grow marijuana (it's called "weed" for a reason) but our punitive justice system does a decent job of discouraging most people. We don't have to prohibit alcohol completely to blunt most of the large scale social and health problems it causes.
- cashewchoo 6y ago
  I do think alcohol is qualitatively different in how easy is it to make, though. For MJ you need specific seeds, which you can't just buy at target. Whereas with a google search and a quick trip to the grocery store you're better equipped to make moonshine than the best shiners of prohibition.
- cogman10 6y ago
  Big difference is how easy it is to spot weed growers vs fermenters. Fermentation simply requires a warm dark place to take place (the darker the better). Which means you can EASILY ferment a lot of alcohol with very little input. Weed, on the other hand, is a plant. Plants need light and water (and quite a bit of it). This is why weed gets busted so frequently. Small scale is harder to detect, but large scale weed growth has a BUNCH of tell tale signs.
  - QuercusMax 6y ago
    Fermentation is also pretty quick - if you know what you're doing, you can turn around a very tasty 5% beer in a week. Growing cannabis requires months, plus time to cure.
  - GordonS 6y ago

inglor_cz 6y ago

MJ has been smoked for centuries as well, the reasons why it ended up being superillegal in the USA are rather recent and rather weird.

colordrops 6y ago

One reason alcohol is so prevalent is that it's a natural product of fermentation of items that we consume. There are videos of dozens of different species of animals drunk on alcohol in rotten food out in the environment. I wouldn't be surprised that the reason we can function relatively well with alcohol use is that we evolved to tolerate it.

lbarrow 6y ago
I had a class on human development where the professor went in the exact opposite direction on this point. Alcohol is basically a mild poison, but it doesn't trigger morning sickness in pregnant women, which you'd think it should given the negative effects it has on the fetus. The lack of evolved response suggests that widespread alcohol consumption is actually a relatively recent development for human beings.

bregma 6y ago

I dunno. Where I live I can go to the cannabis store across from the liquor store in the big-box mall and purchase reasonable rations of each using my credit card and not get arrested. I can even go to the government-owned websites and order cannabis or liquor online for delivery. I have also been to Peru where I was woken each day with a hot cup of coca tea and I could buy packaged coca leaves in the supermarkets. I think "most societies" treat psychoactive substances with respect and toleration and view the over-consumption or inappropriate use as a disease that needs treatment. It is only a few social outliers that do not.

nickysielicki 6y ago
Are you aware that purchasing marijuana this way puts you on a list that prevents you from passing a NICS background check for firearms? How do you feel about that? I’m amazed at how many of my friends have MMJ cards or go to recreation stores and have no problem with their ID being scanned — fully unaware that they’re permanently rescinding their 2nd amendment rights so that they can get a little high. This (IMO) is why Biden is unlikely to support federal legalization of pot, by the way. They want to keep it on the books with decriminalization and unenforcement policies so the ATF policy stays in place. Anyway, my broader point is that buying marijuana, even in legal states, is not at all the same as buying beer or tea. You’re not made a second class citizen by buying tea or beer.
- t-writescode 6y ago
  Given they’re paying with a credit card, it’s very safe to assume they’re not in the United States and don’t care at all.
- vangelis 6y ago
  Which is very dumb. I'd venture that someone under the influence of alcohol (especially with a history of DUIs) is more likely to cap the wife and kids than a primarily cannabis user.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

joduplessis 6y ago

It wasn't invented. It was discovered. Even wild animals know alcohol.

minikites 6y ago
Why do you think I put quotes around "invented"?