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This is literally not what’s happening. The iPhone is their product. If you don’t want to use their products and their store you do not have to. Buy a different

by zaroth 6y ago

This is literally not what’s happening. The iPhone is their product. If you don’t want to use their products and their store you do not have to. Buy a different device. There are plenty. Apple doesn’t get to tell Google, Samsung, Huawei, LG, OnePlus, Fairphone, etc. how to build their devices. The one device they do get to decide how it works is the iPhone. Because they created it, they own it, and they get to decide its future. Their device, their decision. The consumer gets to decide if they like it or not. Overwhelmingly, they decide that they do.

whimsicalism 6y ago
You're making normative claims as if they are "the way things are." Maybe the above is how you think things ought to be (I disagree), but anti-trust jurisprudence does not agree with your pseudo-libertarian worldview.
- zaroth 6y ago
  Maybe we can both at least agree the normative claims I’m making are true absent a monopoly finding. Anti-trust only applies if there’s a finding that Apple is a monopoly. The jury, so to speak, is still out. If Apple was found to be a monopoly, then there may need to be some restrictions placed on how they operate. But I think controlling how your own product works is the presumed default, even if that product is wildly successful, as long as that success is through actual product merit, and not done deceptively or through illegal collusion.
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    > Anti-trust only applies if there’s a finding that Apple is a monopoly. The jury, so to speak, is still out. Wrong again, you can violate anti-competition law without being a monopoly. You're correct that it hasn't been decided in a court of law. I'm saying that I think they are engaging in anti-competitive behavior, you are saying "actually it is okay because they haven't been judged to engage in anti-competitive behavior in a court of law", which does not seem contrary to my claim, which is that I think they should be judged to engage in anti-competitive behavior.
    - zaroth 6y ago
      That’s not what I’m saying. The case law on this is not as definitive as you are claiming. I don’t think their behavior is illegally anti-competitive. Sure, you can say that not supporting a specific 3rd party application (e.g. an App Store) on your device is “anti-competitive” but obviously not illegally so for any business. Behavior which is totally legal can become illegal in a monopoly situation.
      - whimsicalism 6y ago
        Dude, you're the one who said > Their device, their decision. The consumer gets to decide if they like it or not. and now you're telling me that the case law isn't definitive? That's my whole point - you're making strong assertions as if they are the way the law works, when they are just your personal opinion on how things ought to work. Numerous decisions in the past have required companies to change how they do things on their devices. I'm not saying the case will be decided against Apple.
        zaroth 6y ago
        It comes down to what you mean by anti-competitive. If you mean illegally anti-competitive then there’s a debate to be had. If you mean “anti-competitive” in the sense that they don’t offer their entire code base MIT licensed, then 100% they are anti-competitive in that sense, and they have every right to choose to be. To somewhat oversimplify, you are allowed to not invite competitors to sell to your customers in your own backyard. Unless you are a monopoly. Because then that “backyard” isn’t rightfully yours to control. At the moment I am inclined to believe the iPhone is Apple’s own backyard and they should have dominion over what happens there. If you want to confiscate Apple’s backyard, you do it at the risk that you damage a company that has done a great service for the world, and a company that IMO deserves the benefit of controlling its own destiny and should be left to continue innovating on its own terms. If someone thinks they can do better then there’s trillions of dollars in market cap on the line and I welcome them to try. Apple won’t stop them from trying, but will certainly compete fiercely on the merits.
stale2002 6y ago
> The iPhone is their product. The same exact argument could be used regarding the desktop PC. Do you think that microsoft could prevent competing web browser from being installed on the PC, if it choose to do so? I think not. They would lose that anti-trust lawsuit. > Because they created it, they own it, and they get to decide its future. No, actually they dont get to decide that. If they are breaking anti-trust law, via anti-competitive behavior, then there are certain actions that they cannot do. > The consumer gets to decide if they like it or not. The consumers, or other companies, can also sue them for breaking anti-trust law, which Apple is required by law to follow.
test001only 6y ago
> Their device, their decision. Once I buy an iPhone, I own it and it is my device.
- sjwright 6y ago
  Owning the atoms is less consequential than you infer. You don’t “own” the operating system software loaded on it, it’s only licensed to you.

by zaroth 6y ago

whimsicalism 6y ago

You're making normative claims as if they are "the way things are." Maybe the above is how you think things ought to be (I disagree), but anti-trust jurisprudence does not agree with your pseudo-libertarian worldview.

zaroth 6y ago
Maybe we can both at least agree the normative claims I’m making are true absent a monopoly finding. Anti-trust only applies if there’s a finding that Apple is a monopoly. The jury, so to speak, is still out. If Apple was found to be a monopoly, then there may need to be some restrictions placed on how they operate. But I think controlling how your own product works is the presumed default, even if that product is wildly successful, as long as that success is through actual product merit, and not done deceptively or through illegal collusion.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  > Anti-trust only applies if there’s a finding that Apple is a monopoly. The jury, so to speak, is still out. Wrong again, you can violate anti-competition law without being a monopoly. You're correct that it hasn't been decided in a court of law. I'm saying that I think they are engaging in anti-competitive behavior, you are saying "actually it is okay because they haven't been judged to engage in anti-competitive behavior in a court of law", which does not seem contrary to my claim, which is that I think they should be judged to engage in anti-competitive behavior.
  - zaroth 6y ago
    That’s not what I’m saying. The case law on this is not as definitive as you are claiming. I don’t think their behavior is illegally anti-competitive. Sure, you can say that not supporting a specific 3rd party application (e.g. an App Store) on your device is “anti-competitive” but obviously not illegally so for any business. Behavior which is totally legal can become illegal in a monopoly situation.
    - whimsicalism 6y ago
      Dude, you're the one who said > Their device, their decision. The consumer gets to decide if they like it or not. and now you're telling me that the case law isn't definitive? That's my whole point - you're making strong assertions as if they are the way the law works, when they are just your personal opinion on how things ought to work. Numerous decisions in the past have required companies to change how they do things on their devices. I'm not saying the case will be decided against Apple.
      - zaroth 6y ago
        It comes down to what you mean by anti-competitive. If you mean illegally anti-competitive then there’s a debate to be had. If you mean “anti-competitive” in the sense that they don’t offer their entire code base MIT licensed, then 100% they are anti-competitive in that sense, and they have every right to choose to be. To somewhat oversimplify, you are allowed to not invite competitors to sell to your customers in your own backyard. Unless you are a monopoly. Because then that “backyard” isn’t rightfully yours to control. At the moment I am inclined to believe the iPhone is Apple’s own backyard and they should have dominion over what happens there. If you want to confiscate Apple’s backyard, you do it at the risk that you damage a company that has done a great service for the world, and a company that IMO deserves the benefit of controlling its own destiny and should be left to continue innovating on its own terms. If someone thinks they can do better then there’s trillions of dollars in market cap on the line and I welcome them to try. Apple won’t stop them from trying, but will certainly compete fiercely on the merits.

stale2002 6y ago

> The iPhone is their product. The same exact argument could be used regarding the desktop PC. Do you think that microsoft could prevent competing web browser from being installed on the PC, if it choose to do so? I think not. They would lose that anti-trust lawsuit. > Because they created it, they own it, and they get to decide its future. No, actually they dont get to decide that. If they are breaking anti-trust law, via anti-competitive behavior, then there are certain actions that they cannot do. > The consumer gets to decide if they like it or not. The consumers, or other companies, can also sue them for breaking anti-trust law, which Apple is required by law to follow.

test001only 6y ago

> Their device, their decision. Once I buy an iPhone, I own it and it is my device.

sjwright 6y ago
Owning the atoms is less consequential than you infer. You don’t “own” the operating system software loaded on it, it’s only licensed to you.