17 ms·

Almost 60 percent of business closures are now permanent, new Yelp data shows

109 points by elorant 6y ago

devit 6y ago
Nice, maybe we can start embracing more sensible ways of feeding people that the ridiculously inefficient restaurant model with cooks, servers, individual food choice and individual tables.
- avalys 6y ago
  Line up at the dispenser for your very efficient food pellet!
- odshoifsdhfs 6y ago
  Yes, soylent green for everyone. In the meantime, we should also destroy most of side-projects in github (heck, developers are using electricity while doing these non sensible projects), probably also kill youtube and facebook, and even commenting here in HN. Think of the server electricity bills we will save. Just because you don't enjoy something, don't be so happy for others misfortune please. For some going to restaurants are their highlights of the week and for the people working there, their paychecks
  - bazooka_penguin 6y ago
    Why don't we just kill the poor people? /s
- wafflesraccoon 6y ago
  Soylent green is made of people
- nineplay 6y ago
  I read a article pre-covid about a restaurant owner in SF who'd closed her sit-down, full service restaurant and opened a counter-service/takeout restaurant instead. Less staff, less overhead, more customers, and she felt it was a better model for everyone involved. Even before Covid, the sit down restaurant service with it's hostess and waiters and 3 course menus seemed to be going the way of the movie theater. Who has time, who has energy, and who wouldn't be just as happy getting Doordash and eating in the comfort of their home and probably watching a movie at the same time? Fewer and fewer people it turns out.
  - commandlinefan 6y ago
    > sit down restaurant service ... seemed to be going the way of the movie theater ... who wouldn't be just as happy ... in the comfort of their home and probably watching a movie Well, I'm just one data point, but I vastly prefer going out for dinner (and sitting down, getting a menu, having a waiter) and going in person to a movie theater to doing those things in my same-old living room that I see every night. I don't know just how in the minority I am, but there are some of us who think it's worth the extra money you pay to have the experience.
    - rabuse 6y ago
      My family and I have been going to movie theaters as a weekly family outing for a long time (pre-covid), and I have always enjoyed that. You just don't get the same experience from home.
  - geewee 6y ago
    I would much rather eat at s restaurant. The food hasn't gotten cold, and it just feels like a completely different experience
    - nineplay 6y ago
      I like eating in restaruants but it just doesn't happen very often. Mostly when I do (did) it's lunch with coworkers. Otherwise - while on vacation or maybe the oddball anniversary dinner, but not much else. I doubt I'm paying their bills.
      - matthewowen 6y ago
        I mean, OK? But other people are: restaurants collectively were booming before the pandemic[0]. And even in the midst of a pandemic, many people are still going out to them! I think your anecdata is heavy on the anecdote and light on the data. 0: https://www.nrn.com/sales-trends/us-restaurant-sales-reach-record-863b-2019-nra-says https://www.nrn.com/sales-trends/us-restaurant-sales-reach-r...
- jjeaff 6y ago
  We've already tried that. Cafeterias have their place, but places like Luby's and other cafeteria style restaurants are on their way out.
- staplers 6y ago
  In Portland (Pre-Covid), a popular upscale restaurant model was to wait in line to pre-order at the counter, then grab your own silverware and table, and a non-server would bring out your order. Often this would allow restaurants to serve upscale food at cheaper prices due to low overhead. Even with their successfully efficient business model, many are closing permanently. Your comment sounds dramatically bitter.
- jariel 6y ago
  ? It's actually probably more efficient to have people prepare food than for you to do it yourself, just like almost everything else in life. I'm not saying we should just do that, but in terms of raw efficiency, the only issues is freshness vs. transport/timing etc. Otherwise - you don't make your own butter, grow your own food, or make your own furniture either.
- rabuse 6y ago
  Let's just live in our pods, own nothing by renting everything, implement our social score system, and eat our bug bars. That'll make everyone happy...
caeril 6y ago
This reflects my personal view of the "real" economy. Nearly everyone around me is absolutely destitute. Meanwhile, equities are trading at all time highs. There is an enormous disconnect, at least in my specific area.
- x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
  The government a while back injected TRILLIONS into the stock market in a bid to keep the stock market afloat. Acts like that have gone far to increase the difference in fortunes between main street and wall street.
  - mint2 6y ago
    I think generalizing to the “government” as a whole is wrong. There’s a clearly define part of the government that is unwilling to do anything. Every effort has died in the senate.
    - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
      Thats not the part of government that injected $trillions into the stock market, is it?
      - mint2 6y ago
        The part that did that has been pleading with congress to do something. They turned the only knob they have. It affected the only thing the knob is able to effect. Why are people acting surprised? They’ve been clear it’s not a great solution and that Congress needs to do something. That their knob is not the best solution but they’ll do what the best they can.
        chordalkeyboard 6y ago
        The alternate perspective is that injecting trillions of dollars into the market has benefitted the wealthy at the expense of the rest of us.
tmaly 6y ago
My neighbor runs a restaurant. This is really hard work. He seems to work 7 days a week from late morning till after midnight. Restaurants are a really nice to have thing when your worn out from work and you do not want to have to think about cooking. I think there is another aspect to this that goes beyond restaurants and more towards small businesses in general. If we consider that Yelp does more than just restaurant reviews, this fact of 60% closures is going to have a huge impact on state budgets with the loss of tax revenue.
- conductr 6y ago
  Retail in general is down ~20-40% YoY And I'd argue the money is being spent somewhere, so the state won't have a total loss. It's likely offset by the fed stimulus spending, for now. Somewhat related anecdote: I looked at a liquor store for sale. In a low-mid income area. After consistently growing sales ~$100k/year, 2020 is over a $1M increase over 2019. Of course, seller wants to base multiple off 2020 which is obviously needs an non-recurring item adjustment.
evo_9 6y ago
But the blood-suckers at Yelp are doing just fine. They continue to bleed my wife's family business for 100 bucks a month - an extortion fee - otherwise all our reviews are removed (by which I mean all our positive reviews which are all we have) and are replaced by negative / fake reviews. I cannot express my deep, unyielding absolute disgust and hatred for Yelp strong enough. I would love to create an alternative, but I just don't see how viable that is even though I'm more than capable tech/coding-wise. Edit/additional info: That $100 is the least we can pay a month; there is no lower amount.
- jerry1979 6y ago
  I have not heard this before. Do all businesses pay yelp $100 per month?
  - andrewmcwatters 6y ago
    No, many pay a lot more. Basically if you see any indicators of company highlights on Yelp, they're paying for it, and they're passing off Yelp's extortion to you by increasing margins. Yelp tries to keep a visible dichotomy on their site by offering "Sponsored Results," but the reality of their listings is that they're almost all sponsored results. Their reputation is so poor among some circles now that I don't see them staying in power 10 years out. They're going the way of the BBB. As a result, you're safer searching for certain types of businesses on Google Maps, but even Google has "GOOGLE GUARANTEED" and possibly other paid-for indicators which make me not trust their results. The market incentives are so bad among rating and business directory sites that I can only imagine that at this point, only a mutual company dedicated to business directory services can survive long-term. I don't think any exist right now.
    - jogjayr 6y ago
      Although the Google Guaranteed program is paid, it's specific to certain types of businesses (service providers like plumbers and locksmiths). Google performs a background check and verifies the business's license and insurance. It also guarantees customers a refund (up to a cap) if they aren't satisfied.[1] EDIT: In fact the background check and screening are free. The Guarantee only appears to refer to the refund guarantee.[2] Disclosure: I work at Google, and knew some people on the team. 1. https://support.google.com/google-ads/answer/7549288?hl=en https://support.google.com/google-ads/answer/7549288?hl=en 2. https://support.google.com/google-ads/answer/6226575?hl=en&ref_topic=6224863 https://support.google.com/google-ads/answer/6226575?hl=en&r...
chrisjarvis 6y ago
this article is 2 months old
- tinus_hn 6y ago
  Yeah I’m sure most of these businesses have reopened by now
  - guessbest 6y ago
    We just need another lockdown to help the businesses reopen.
sabujp 6y ago
I think this is doom and gloom reporting. Yes these businesses may be closed "permanently", but others will eventually rise in their places. It'll take more than a year but it will happen. The great depression lasted for 4 (or 10 years depending on who you ask). I think we're much better equipped now financially and scientifically to deal with the pandemic (e.g. fast time to market for vaccines). Now it's just a matter of govt mobilizing.
- commandlinefan 6y ago
  > It'll take more than a year but it will happen You don't think that's gloomy?
  - sabujp 6y ago
    again, ask people who lived through the depression what gloomy really is.
    - doyouevensunbro 6y ago
      Are there a lot of Great Depression survivors on HN? Here’s hoping they chime in.
      - sabujp 6y ago
        ok, famines, wars, refugee crises, etc
  - dfxm12 6y ago
    I don't. A small business only has a 50/50 shot of surviving 5 years when there isn't a global pandemic. Since 2011, more businesses have been opening than closing each year [0]. This is worse than normal, but there's a lot of room between that and "gloomy". https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/advocacy/Frequently-Asked-Questions-Small-Business-2018.pdf https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/advocacy/Frequently-...
- munificent 6y ago
jsnider3 6y ago
This is getting out of hand.
z92 6y ago
Note that it's not 60% of all businesses closing. Rather 60% of businesses that have already closed, won't re-open.
02020202 6y ago
good. let the sheep suffer. if you wont fight for your rights and freedoms, you deserve none.

109 points by elorant 6y ago

Nice, maybe we can start embracing more sensible ways of feeding people that the ridiculously inefficient restaurant model with cooks, servers, individual food choice and individual tables.

avalys 6y ago
Line up at the dispenser for your very efficient food pellet!
odshoifsdhfs 6y ago
Yes, soylent green for everyone. In the meantime, we should also destroy most of side-projects in github (heck, developers are using electricity while doing these non sensible projects), probably also kill youtube and facebook, and even commenting here in HN. Think of the server electricity bills we will save. Just because you don't enjoy something, don't be so happy for others misfortune please. For some going to restaurants are their highlights of the week and for the people working there, their paychecks
- bazooka_penguin 6y ago
  Why don't we just kill the poor people? /s
wafflesraccoon 6y ago
Soylent green is made of people
nineplay 6y ago
I read a article pre-covid about a restaurant owner in SF who'd closed her sit-down, full service restaurant and opened a counter-service/takeout restaurant instead. Less staff, less overhead, more customers, and she felt it was a better model for everyone involved. Even before Covid, the sit down restaurant service with it's hostess and waiters and 3 course menus seemed to be going the way of the movie theater. Who has time, who has energy, and who wouldn't be just as happy getting Doordash and eating in the comfort of their home and probably watching a movie at the same time? Fewer and fewer people it turns out.
- commandlinefan 6y ago
  > sit down restaurant service ... seemed to be going the way of the movie theater ... who wouldn't be just as happy ... in the comfort of their home and probably watching a movie Well, I'm just one data point, but I vastly prefer going out for dinner (and sitting down, getting a menu, having a waiter) and going in person to a movie theater to doing those things in my same-old living room that I see every night. I don't know just how in the minority I am, but there are some of us who think it's worth the extra money you pay to have the experience.
  - rabuse 6y ago
    My family and I have been going to movie theaters as a weekly family outing for a long time (pre-covid), and I have always enjoyed that. You just don't get the same experience from home.
- geewee 6y ago
  I would much rather eat at s restaurant. The food hasn't gotten cold, and it just feels like a completely different experience
  - nineplay 6y ago
    I like eating in restaruants but it just doesn't happen very often. Mostly when I do (did) it's lunch with coworkers. Otherwise - while on vacation or maybe the oddball anniversary dinner, but not much else. I doubt I'm paying their bills.
    - matthewowen 6y ago
      I mean, OK? But other people are: restaurants collectively were booming before the pandemic[0]. And even in the midst of a pandemic, many people are still going out to them! I think your anecdata is heavy on the anecdote and light on the data. 0: https://www.nrn.com/sales-trends/us-restaurant-sales-reach-record-863b-2019-nra-says https://www.nrn.com/sales-trends/us-restaurant-sales-reach-r...
jjeaff 6y ago
We've already tried that. Cafeterias have their place, but places like Luby's and other cafeteria style restaurants are on their way out.
staplers 6y ago
In Portland (Pre-Covid), a popular upscale restaurant model was to wait in line to pre-order at the counter, then grab your own silverware and table, and a non-server would bring out your order. Often this would allow restaurants to serve upscale food at cheaper prices due to low overhead. Even with their successfully efficient business model, many are closing permanently. Your comment sounds dramatically bitter.
jariel 6y ago
? It's actually probably more efficient to have people prepare food than for you to do it yourself, just like almost everything else in life. I'm not saying we should just do that, but in terms of raw efficiency, the only issues is freshness vs. transport/timing etc. Otherwise - you don't make your own butter, grow your own food, or make your own furniture either.
rabuse 6y ago
Let's just live in our pods, own nothing by renting everything, implement our social score system, and eat our bug bars. That'll make everyone happy...

caeril 6y ago

This reflects my personal view of the "real" economy. Nearly everyone around me is absolutely destitute. Meanwhile, equities are trading at all time highs. There is an enormous disconnect, at least in my specific area.

x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
The government a while back injected TRILLIONS into the stock market in a bid to keep the stock market afloat. Acts like that have gone far to increase the difference in fortunes between main street and wall street.
- mint2 6y ago
  I think generalizing to the “government” as a whole is wrong. There’s a clearly define part of the government that is unwilling to do anything. Every effort has died in the senate.
  - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
    Thats not the part of government that injected $trillions into the stock market, is it?
    - mint2 6y ago
      The part that did that has been pleading with congress to do something. They turned the only knob they have. It affected the only thing the knob is able to effect. Why are people acting surprised? They’ve been clear it’s not a great solution and that Congress needs to do something. That their knob is not the best solution but they’ll do what the best they can.
      - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
        The alternate perspective is that injecting trillions of dollars into the market has benefitted the wealthy at the expense of the rest of us.

tmaly 6y ago

My neighbor runs a restaurant. This is really hard work. He seems to work 7 days a week from late morning till after midnight. Restaurants are a really nice to have thing when your worn out from work and you do not want to have to think about cooking. I think there is another aspect to this that goes beyond restaurants and more towards small businesses in general. If we consider that Yelp does more than just restaurant reviews, this fact of 60% closures is going to have a huge impact on state budgets with the loss of tax revenue.

conductr 6y ago
Retail in general is down ~20-40% YoY And I'd argue the money is being spent somewhere, so the state won't have a total loss. It's likely offset by the fed stimulus spending, for now. Somewhat related anecdote: I looked at a liquor store for sale. In a low-mid income area. After consistently growing sales ~$100k/year, 2020 is over a $1M increase over 2019. Of course, seller wants to base multiple off 2020 which is obviously needs an non-recurring item adjustment.

evo_9 6y ago

But the blood-suckers at Yelp are doing just fine. They continue to bleed my wife's family business for 100 bucks a month - an extortion fee - otherwise all our reviews are removed (by which I mean all our positive reviews which are all we have) and are replaced by negative / fake reviews. I cannot express my deep, unyielding absolute disgust and hatred for Yelp strong enough. I would love to create an alternative, but I just don't see how viable that is even though I'm more than capable tech/coding-wise. Edit/additional info: That $100 is the least we can pay a month; there is no lower amount.

jerry1979 6y ago
I have not heard this before. Do all businesses pay yelp $100 per month?
- andrewmcwatters 6y ago
  No, many pay a lot more. Basically if you see any indicators of company highlights on Yelp, they're paying for it, and they're passing off Yelp's extortion to you by increasing margins. Yelp tries to keep a visible dichotomy on their site by offering "Sponsored Results," but the reality of their listings is that they're almost all sponsored results. Their reputation is so poor among some circles now that I don't see them staying in power 10 years out. They're going the way of the BBB. As a result, you're safer searching for certain types of businesses on Google Maps, but even Google has "GOOGLE GUARANTEED" and possibly other paid-for indicators which make me not trust their results. The market incentives are so bad among rating and business directory sites that I can only imagine that at this point, only a mutual company dedicated to business directory services can survive long-term. I don't think any exist right now.
  - jogjayr 6y ago
    Although the Google Guaranteed program is paid, it's specific to certain types of businesses (service providers like plumbers and locksmiths). Google performs a background check and verifies the business's license and insurance. It also guarantees customers a refund (up to a cap) if they aren't satisfied.[1] EDIT: In fact the background check and screening are free. The Guarantee only appears to refer to the refund guarantee.[2] Disclosure: I work at Google, and knew some people on the team. 1. https://support.google.com/google-ads/answer/7549288?hl=en https://support.google.com/google-ads/answer/7549288?hl=en 2. https://support.google.com/google-ads/answer/6226575?hl=en&ref_topic=6224863 https://support.google.com/google-ads/answer/6226575?hl=en&r...

chrisjarvis 6y ago

this article is 2 months old

tinus_hn 6y ago
Yeah I’m sure most of these businesses have reopened by now
- guessbest 6y ago
  We just need another lockdown to help the businesses reopen.

sabujp 6y ago

I think this is doom and gloom reporting. Yes these businesses may be closed "permanently", but others will eventually rise in their places. It'll take more than a year but it will happen. The great depression lasted for 4 (or 10 years depending on who you ask). I think we're much better equipped now financially and scientifically to deal with the pandemic (e.g. fast time to market for vaccines). Now it's just a matter of govt mobilizing.

commandlinefan 6y ago
> It'll take more than a year but it will happen You don't think that's gloomy?
- sabujp 6y ago
  again, ask people who lived through the depression what gloomy really is.
  - doyouevensunbro 6y ago
    Are there a lot of Great Depression survivors on HN? Here’s hoping they chime in.
    - sabujp 6y ago
      ok, famines, wars, refugee crises, etc
- dfxm12 6y ago
  I don't. A small business only has a 50/50 shot of surviving 5 years when there isn't a global pandemic. Since 2011, more businesses have been opening than closing each year [0]. This is worse than normal, but there's a lot of room between that and "gloomy". https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/advocacy/Frequently-Asked-Questions-Small-Business-2018.pdf https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/advocacy/Frequently-...
munificent 6y ago

jsnider3 6y ago

This is getting out of hand.

z92 6y ago

Note that it's not 60% of all businesses closing. Rather 60% of businesses that have already closed, won't re-open.

02020202 6y ago

good. let the sheep suffer. if you wont fight for your rights and freedoms, you deserve none.