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I am only qualified to speak about the tech sector in which I work. All of my coworkers make above six figures. We have every sort of benefit that we could want

I am only qualified to speak about the tech sector in which I work. All of my coworkers make above six figures. We have every sort of benefit that we could want. Why would we want a union? Our company has convinced us that unions are a bad thing by giving us basically anything that a union could have, and more. Why would we want to agitate for more when we already have so much, and risk what we currently have (which is more than adequate)

bumby 6y ago
Unions are meant to bring some balance to a very imbalanced power structure when that power structure lends itself to taking advantage of the employees. The fact that you and your fellow employees have it so well may indicate that isn't your case. Unions aren't necessary but can help. I've worked in positions where the courts provided the same benefit via a different mechanism. Edit: I accidently had "are" for "aren't"
KittenInABox 6y ago
I'm also a tech worker and I know plenty of things we can agitate for: * Better treatment against the rampant ageism in our industry (eg. access to lawyers when IBM decides to do mass layoffs of people above a certain age...) * Guaranteeing reimbursement for self-education materials, time off for self-education purposes like conventions and hacker spaces * Better treatment for H1B visa holders, a political push to stop the abuse of workers who cannot leave employers or risk losing immigration status * Support for and communal funding for OSS * A group pushback against flagrantly unethical, insecure, or straight up illegal behavior on the part of companies (eg. that non-poaching agreement back in the day that kept people's wages from being as high as they should've been) * Standard establishment of making sure remote workers are paid for the value they bring to the company and aren't stiffed purely because of where they are geographically located at the time.
- yeetman21 6y ago
  To reply to your point about H1B: Unions are normally very nativist and would be the last group pushing for better/ more H1B visas. The Union reaction to the TPP should have indicated something. I feel as if the ageism is more on the worker's shoulders. Many of us are young, and the field is on the younger side on average
  - KittenInABox 6y ago
    Unions can be nativist but a tech union shouldn't have to be just because another labor union might've been. Ageism is on the worker's shoulders, but those workers are also managers who choose to do bullshit like lay off workers above a certain age across a company. We need ways to protect ourselves from that.
    - yeetman21 6y ago
      Unions are meant to increase wages for the workers. How will added X thousands of new workers (willing or forced to work for less) increase wages for the workers. It is by its design that unions are nativist. Agree with the second point on ageism
    - JAlexoid 6y ago
      Tech workers are no more or less nativist, than anyone else.
    - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
      > "Unions can be nativist but a tech union shouldn't have to be just because another labor union might've been." There is no "might have been". It's pretty much a matter of historical record that labor unions were fiercely anti-immigrant. Judging by nativist comments even on a heavily moderated forum like HN whenever the topic of H1-Bs comes up, the many, many immigrants in the tech industry would be have to be bonkers to trust that a tech union wouldn't become nativist.
      - teachrdan 6y ago
        Here is one big counter-example: The Service Employees International Union, or SEIU, a union with two million members in the US. They call for comprehensive immigration reform tied with labor conditions. Teachers' unions like the American Federation of Teachers and the National Education Association also call for compassionate immigration reform. The old stereotype of nativist unions is just that. It's true in some cases--see the Teamsters, who also supported Trump, or police unions--but the actual union movement in the US has long fought for better treatment for immigrants. https://www.seiu.org/cards/solutions-for-immigration-reform-explained/our-framework-for-comprehensive-immigration-reform/p2 https://www.seiu.org/cards/solutions-for-immigration-reform-...
- bumby 6y ago
  >Better treatment against the rampant ageism in our industry I don’t know your location, but in the US it’s already illegal to discriminate against someone’s age if they’re over 40
Dirlewanger 6y ago
I'm in the same boat as you, but think about this: these cushy developer jobs in the Western world are on borrowed time. FAANG companies are investing billions to teach people how to code and brand it as if it's some noble humanitarian effort when it's really just to further lower wages. When the time of FAANG companies actually offshoring key development teams comes (and it is coming), I have 0 faith the federal government will give a shit to protect US workers. So maybe a union is the best way to stop this.
- Nasrudith 6y ago
  Wait how could Unions help against outsourcing? What do Unions do? Use strikes (withholding labor) to get concessions. What does outsourcing involve? Finding cheaper labor out of the country and laying off or firing existing workforce. If outsourcing is the threat isn't the potentially outsourced threatening a strike kind of like responding to a mugger by putting a knife to your own throat? Except I think that might be more effective as a threat as it makes the mugger think of you as unstable and irrational.
  - bee_rider 6y ago
    A union can't help workers whose company is currently in the process of outsourcing them. However, it is often the case that a company isn't ready to completely shut down local operations.
- asciident 6y ago
  I heard this same narrative in 2000, and it didn't happen, in fact the opposite. If you want people to believe that more people coding leads to offshoring and thus universally low wages, you'll have to make a more convincing argument to convince us that history is wrong (and not just wrong, went the complete opposite direction).
- JAlexoid 6y ago
  Wealth isn't a single pie. When new engineers are trained - we bake a new cake, instead of slicing a thinner slice for your privileged position.

bumby 6y ago

Unions are meant to bring some balance to a very imbalanced power structure when that power structure lends itself to taking advantage of the employees. The fact that you and your fellow employees have it so well may indicate that isn't your case. Unions aren't necessary but can help. I've worked in positions where the courts provided the same benefit via a different mechanism. Edit: I accidently had "are" for "aren't"

KittenInABox 6y ago

I'm also a tech worker and I know plenty of things we can agitate for: * Better treatment against the rampant ageism in our industry (eg. access to lawyers when IBM decides to do mass layoffs of people above a certain age...) * Guaranteeing reimbursement for self-education materials, time off for self-education purposes like conventions and hacker spaces * Better treatment for H1B visa holders, a political push to stop the abuse of workers who cannot leave employers or risk losing immigration status * Support for and communal funding for OSS * A group pushback against flagrantly unethical, insecure, or straight up illegal behavior on the part of companies (eg. that non-poaching agreement back in the day that kept people's wages from being as high as they should've been) * Standard establishment of making sure remote workers are paid for the value they bring to the company and aren't stiffed purely because of where they are geographically located at the time.

yeetman21 6y ago
To reply to your point about H1B: Unions are normally very nativist and would be the last group pushing for better/ more H1B visas. The Union reaction to the TPP should have indicated something. I feel as if the ageism is more on the worker's shoulders. Many of us are young, and the field is on the younger side on average
- KittenInABox 6y ago
  Unions can be nativist but a tech union shouldn't have to be just because another labor union might've been. Ageism is on the worker's shoulders, but those workers are also managers who choose to do bullshit like lay off workers above a certain age across a company. We need ways to protect ourselves from that.
  - yeetman21 6y ago
    Unions are meant to increase wages for the workers. How will added X thousands of new workers (willing or forced to work for less) increase wages for the workers. It is by its design that unions are nativist. Agree with the second point on ageism
  - JAlexoid 6y ago
    Tech workers are no more or less nativist, than anyone else.
  - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
    > "Unions can be nativist but a tech union shouldn't have to be just because another labor union might've been." There is no "might have been". It's pretty much a matter of historical record that labor unions were fiercely anti-immigrant. Judging by nativist comments even on a heavily moderated forum like HN whenever the topic of H1-Bs comes up, the many, many immigrants in the tech industry would be have to be bonkers to trust that a tech union wouldn't become nativist.
    - teachrdan 6y ago
      Here is one big counter-example: The Service Employees International Union, or SEIU, a union with two million members in the US. They call for comprehensive immigration reform tied with labor conditions. Teachers' unions like the American Federation of Teachers and the National Education Association also call for compassionate immigration reform. The old stereotype of nativist unions is just that. It's true in some cases--see the Teamsters, who also supported Trump, or police unions--but the actual union movement in the US has long fought for better treatment for immigrants. https://www.seiu.org/cards/solutions-for-immigration-reform-explained/our-framework-for-comprehensive-immigration-reform/p2 https://www.seiu.org/cards/solutions-for-immigration-reform-...
bumby 6y ago
>Better treatment against the rampant ageism in our industry I don’t know your location, but in the US it’s already illegal to discriminate against someone’s age if they’re over 40

Dirlewanger 6y ago

I'm in the same boat as you, but think about this: these cushy developer jobs in the Western world are on borrowed time. FAANG companies are investing billions to teach people how to code and brand it as if it's some noble humanitarian effort when it's really just to further lower wages. When the time of FAANG companies actually offshoring key development teams comes (and it is coming), I have 0 faith the federal government will give a shit to protect US workers. So maybe a union is the best way to stop this.

Nasrudith 6y ago
Wait how could Unions help against outsourcing? What do Unions do? Use strikes (withholding labor) to get concessions. What does outsourcing involve? Finding cheaper labor out of the country and laying off or firing existing workforce. If outsourcing is the threat isn't the potentially outsourced threatening a strike kind of like responding to a mugger by putting a knife to your own throat? Except I think that might be more effective as a threat as it makes the mugger think of you as unstable and irrational.
- bee_rider 6y ago
  A union can't help workers whose company is currently in the process of outsourcing them. However, it is often the case that a company isn't ready to completely shut down local operations.
asciident 6y ago
I heard this same narrative in 2000, and it didn't happen, in fact the opposite. If you want people to believe that more people coding leads to offshoring and thus universally low wages, you'll have to make a more convincing argument to convince us that history is wrong (and not just wrong, went the complete opposite direction).
JAlexoid 6y ago
Wealth isn't a single pie. When new engineers are trained - we bake a new cake, instead of slicing a thinner slice for your privileged position.