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This will happen but people will should not be surprised that we all get paid Topeka KS salaries not San Francisco CA salaries. The long term strategy of locat

This will happen but people will should not be surprised that we all get paid Topeka KS salaries not San Francisco CA salaries. The long term strategy of location pay differentials may seem like punishing people for leaving SF, but it's the opposite. I've been paid 80% of SF rate to live in the middle of nowhere and anyone else who has done this will realize it's an amazing deal. When a 3000 sq ft house costs considerably less than your 1 bedroom apartment, you realize that your cost of living didn't just drop by more than 20%, but that standard of living went way up. The long-term play from tech companies suddenly going remote is that in 1 year or so, once a sizable portion of the workforce has relocated, the "salary reduction" to move out, will become a "salary enhancement" to live in SF. Then the conversation will be "Look Matt, it really doesn't make sense to pay you a premium just because you want to work SF. If you want to stay that's fine, but we'll be downgrading your pay to meet company standards."

ghaff 6y ago
In a (still very hypothetical) world where some group/class of employees are overwhelmingly remote/distributed, it's reasonable to assume that salaries tend to equalize at least within the US. That's a lot of hypotheticals, of course. However, if it were to become the case, why would I have any reason to pay you a premium to live in Manhattan or SF any more than I would pay you a premium to live in Aspen. ADDED: Salary is pretty sticky in a downward direction. However, over time, one can imagine levels equalizing as things like RSUs/bonuses become more similar across locations.
- warkdarrior 6y ago
  The discussion won't be about premium for Manhattan v. premium in Aspen. It'll be premium for Manhattan v. regular wage in Stockton.
claudeganon 6y ago
>When a 3000 sq ft house costs considerably less than your 1 bedroom apartment, you realize that your cost of living didn't just drop by more than 20%, but that standard of living went way up. I moved from an apartment in LA to owning a home in Michigan. My standard of living had not gone up. Instead of being surrounded by an interesting, diverse set of generally sane people, and having many more job opportunities readily available in my field, I have COVID denying, borderline cultists who tried to assassinate the governor and generally make it unsafe for me to go anywhere without risking getting sick and stolid corporations that underpay and don’t take risks. Thankfully, I still work remotely for a company in California so I can go back when this all blows over.
NationalPark 6y ago
Speak for yourself, but you'd have to pay me even more to live in the middle of nowhere than in a city, and this doesn't seem to be an uncommon preference. Especially if you're young, single, have disposable income, and lean left politically, which is probably most of the remote tech workers who have these options.
- whateveracct 6y ago
  SF vs Kansas are two extremes though. You can live in the suburbs of another urban center with cheaper CoL and have similar effects. For instance, the Seattle/Tacoma area (which also has easy access to an airport with short flights to SFO and SJC.)
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  Fun story. A former chairman of the Czech Green Party, a young and progressive gay guy moved to a rural area, bought an older ruin of some former baron's chatelet and started putting it into order. With his husband. In a year or so, his Tweets started shifting noticeably to the center and sometimes to the right, to a great consternation of his former Green co-partisans. There is something about life out there that changes people's priorities.
  - NationalPark 6y ago
    Ha, just goes to show you really can't bucket everyone. Likewise, I know a few younger progressive folks who decided to move to rural, conservative areas (in the US) and got quite a lot more than they bargained for. It's certainly a different lifestyle.
  - kstrauser 6y ago
    So much this. To people living in cities, guns are dangerous things that only make local life more dangerous. To people in rural areas, guns are tools just like hammers and chainsaws. Similarly, to urban residents it makes total sense to raise taxes for public transport, but in small towns everyone owns a car anyway so why bother? I think people greatly overestimate how similar their lifestyles are to those of their countrymen. Having lived many years in both of those environments, they have some significant, fundamental differences.
gamblor956 6y ago
Then the conversation will be "Look Matt, it really doesn't make sense to pay you a premium just because you want to work SF. If you want to stay that's fine, but we'll be downgrading your pay to meet company standards." Yes, this is a fantasy of many businesses, but it only works in a down market when a business does not have to meaningfully compete for employees with other businesses.
ryandrake 6y ago
> I've been paid 80% of SF rate to live in the middle of nowhere and anyone else who has done this will realize it's an amazing deal. When a 3000 sq ft house costs considerably less than your 1 bedroom apartment, you realize that your cost of living didn't just drop by more than 20%, but that standard of living went way up. As a counter-anecdote: I moved from the Florida panhandle to the SF Bay area, and while certain things like housing and taxes were quite a bit more expensive, most things really weren't. The California salary/equity increase meant my relative standard of living and (most importantly) ability to save went way up. Without going into specific numbers, in 2019 the amount I was able to put away into 401k, IRAs, and other tax advantaged savings accounts exceeded my entire Florida gross salary in 2009. And I'm not even getting one of those wild outlier high-level FAANG engineer compensations. It's a world of difference.
- mavelikara 6y ago
  If you are comfortable sharing - are you single, or do you have a family?
- bradlys 6y ago
  Relative numbers are very important though. I’m not sure how your standard of living went up unless you are at FAANG or you were severely underpaid in Florida. Ratios wise, the Bay Area is worse and stays worse unless you plan to leave or join FAANG.
- baron_harkonnen 6y ago
  > in 2019 the amount I was able to put away into 401k, IRAs, and other tax advantaged savings accounts exceeded my entire Florida gross salary in 2009 Note that I specified 80% of a Bay area salary, not an arbitrary salary difference. You're implying that you got a 25% raise to move to SF and were able to life off of only 20% of your new salary? I'm not comparing average middle of nowhere salary to SF, I'm saying that for remote workers you typically get something like 80% of an SF salary, typically dramatically higher than most locals get for similar work. Were I lived I was still easily making double what most other tech people in the area were paid. Getting double or triple your old salary will of course make the move to SF worth it. But if you can work in the FL pan handle for just 20% less than you make know, you'll live amazingly.

ghaff 6y ago

In a (still very hypothetical) world where some group/class of employees are overwhelmingly remote/distributed, it's reasonable to assume that salaries tend to equalize at least within the US. That's a lot of hypotheticals, of course. However, if it were to become the case, why would I have any reason to pay you a premium to live in Manhattan or SF any more than I would pay you a premium to live in Aspen. ADDED: Salary is pretty sticky in a downward direction. However, over time, one can imagine levels equalizing as things like RSUs/bonuses become more similar across locations.

warkdarrior 6y ago
The discussion won't be about premium for Manhattan v. premium in Aspen. It'll be premium for Manhattan v. regular wage in Stockton.

claudeganon 6y ago

>When a 3000 sq ft house costs considerably less than your 1 bedroom apartment, you realize that your cost of living didn't just drop by more than 20%, but that standard of living went way up. I moved from an apartment in LA to owning a home in Michigan. My standard of living had not gone up. Instead of being surrounded by an interesting, diverse set of generally sane people, and having many more job opportunities readily available in my field, I have COVID denying, borderline cultists who tried to assassinate the governor and generally make it unsafe for me to go anywhere without risking getting sick and stolid corporations that underpay and don’t take risks. Thankfully, I still work remotely for a company in California so I can go back when this all blows over.

NationalPark 6y ago

Speak for yourself, but you'd have to pay me even more to live in the middle of nowhere than in a city, and this doesn't seem to be an uncommon preference. Especially if you're young, single, have disposable income, and lean left politically, which is probably most of the remote tech workers who have these options.

whateveracct 6y ago
SF vs Kansas are two extremes though. You can live in the suburbs of another urban center with cheaper CoL and have similar effects. For instance, the Seattle/Tacoma area (which also has easy access to an airport with short flights to SFO and SJC.)
inglor_cz 6y ago
Fun story. A former chairman of the Czech Green Party, a young and progressive gay guy moved to a rural area, bought an older ruin of some former baron's chatelet and started putting it into order. With his husband. In a year or so, his Tweets started shifting noticeably to the center and sometimes to the right, to a great consternation of his former Green co-partisans. There is something about life out there that changes people's priorities.
- NationalPark 6y ago
  Ha, just goes to show you really can't bucket everyone. Likewise, I know a few younger progressive folks who decided to move to rural, conservative areas (in the US) and got quite a lot more than they bargained for. It's certainly a different lifestyle.
- kstrauser 6y ago
  So much this. To people living in cities, guns are dangerous things that only make local life more dangerous. To people in rural areas, guns are tools just like hammers and chainsaws. Similarly, to urban residents it makes total sense to raise taxes for public transport, but in small towns everyone owns a car anyway so why bother? I think people greatly overestimate how similar their lifestyles are to those of their countrymen. Having lived many years in both of those environments, they have some significant, fundamental differences.

gamblor956 6y ago

Then the conversation will be "Look Matt, it really doesn't make sense to pay you a premium just because you want to work SF. If you want to stay that's fine, but we'll be downgrading your pay to meet company standards." Yes, this is a fantasy of many businesses, but it only works in a down market when a business does not have to meaningfully compete for employees with other businesses.

ryandrake 6y ago

> I've been paid 80% of SF rate to live in the middle of nowhere and anyone else who has done this will realize it's an amazing deal. When a 3000 sq ft house costs considerably less than your 1 bedroom apartment, you realize that your cost of living didn't just drop by more than 20%, but that standard of living went way up. As a counter-anecdote: I moved from the Florida panhandle to the SF Bay area, and while certain things like housing and taxes were quite a bit more expensive, most things really weren't. The California salary/equity increase meant my relative standard of living and (most importantly) ability to save went way up. Without going into specific numbers, in 2019 the amount I was able to put away into 401k, IRAs, and other tax advantaged savings accounts exceeded my entire Florida gross salary in 2009. And I'm not even getting one of those wild outlier high-level FAANG engineer compensations. It's a world of difference.

mavelikara 6y ago
If you are comfortable sharing - are you single, or do you have a family?
bradlys 6y ago
Relative numbers are very important though. I’m not sure how your standard of living went up unless you are at FAANG or you were severely underpaid in Florida. Ratios wise, the Bay Area is worse and stays worse unless you plan to leave or join FAANG.
baron_harkonnen 6y ago
> in 2019 the amount I was able to put away into 401k, IRAs, and other tax advantaged savings accounts exceeded my entire Florida gross salary in 2009 Note that I specified 80% of a Bay area salary, not an arbitrary salary difference. You're implying that you got a 25% raise to move to SF and were able to life off of only 20% of your new salary? I'm not comparing average middle of nowhere salary to SF, I'm saying that for remote workers you typically get something like 80% of an SF salary, typically dramatically higher than most locals get for similar work. Were I lived I was still easily making double what most other tech people in the area were paid. Getting double or triple your old salary will of course make the move to SF worth it. But if you can work in the FL pan handle for just 20% less than you make know, you'll live amazingly.